Carl Blare Said:
It hurts to see what Jeff Station8 posted. That really shoots the initiative in its own foot.
And MrBruce, in your Post # 50 you don't understand why there's a password for the Secret Site? Don't you remember you were among those who pleaded for a private site to avoid "enemies"? How could it operate without a password?
And MrBruce said: "At the teamspeak ALPB meeting on Saturday February 27, to which everyone was invited to attend and could have voiced your opinions this is what took place."
Correction: That was NOT an ALPB meeting. It was only an initiative meeting.
MrBruce Said:
Carl Blare, thank you for bringing the location of the meeting to my attention, as I spoke to you all or listened to the conversation, I said I was doing research on line which covered the teamspeak GUI and I lost sight that we were not in the ALPB room, You are correct, it was not an ALPB meeting.
I spoke about the need for a forum that was not open to the general public, such as guests being able to view its content and only the logged in memebrship could see.
The conversation was originally about part15.us doing this, but being that Bob was present, it was asked of him if that was possible at the ALPB site to do this.
The rest of that action was turned over to thelegacy and what happened after that was not part of my making or decision.
I did not ask for a passworded forum, but simply one that had permissions set on it to prevent guests from viewing it. If you want to call members guests, I call guests people who can view the forum without a member account, in other words, they do not have to log in to see the thread or its contents.
I do not recall ME asking for a passworded forum board, I asked for one similar to the one Bill Defelice has at HB where he has control over what members see what.
I am not trying to get this thread locked by mentioning another forum board, I am not slandering or name calling them, I am simply using that as an example of what I asked for during the inititive meeting.
You know I am sitting here and can not believe how this whole thing is caving in and people are at each other's throats.
Perhaps the point everyone is trying to make is to stop this and abandon this whole idea all together.
I certainly see you are all trying to tell me the licenesed broadcasters are there and they are going to get everything shot down no matter what we do or try.
Okay, I can agree, the NAB is going to stomp every attempt made by us into the ground and we are going to be made into absolute fools.
I was only trying to get a point out there that you never know unless you try.
Since this inititive started people have been mostly con, saying dream on it ain't happening.
You may very well be right, but it will mostly be that way because we didn't give anything a try, we just simply said hey do you think this might work? No, You're living a pipe dream. Okay you're right, we'll close the inititive and be happy with the way it is.
Has anyone ever tried with the right team doing the paper work?
Yes, I have seen idiots writting petitions and wording them as to insult the NAB or the FCC and I can see why they failed or were laughed at by the public.
We thought, if we had all of your support and your input as to what is a successful way of going about this. What requests should we ask for and what should be the purpose of the request? More range? More Power into the final stage? More antenna height?
That is what this was all supposed to be about in the very beginning.
Now perhaps things have fallen off the train track as to what was originally started, I think some of you out there want change, but prefer it be done the right way.
I agree with each and every one of you, that this inititive has lost it's original focus, but dropping out is not the best solution, the best solution is to stay invloved and stick to your guns until those in the group understand your point.
I can not say it enough, I am listening to you all and do voice your concerns, however, I need facts, I can't just say "Harry says it won't work" without giving evidence to the contrary.
See what I mean?
We can become divided if you really feel something will work if a different approach is used rather then the current one out there.
I think that is what everyone is asking for, and we need input and suggestions that will work the very first time, some people have a harder time, getting that point out there and are subject to negativity. I know some of the initiators mean well, but have a hard time making a valid point. That is where your help and support would help make a big difference.
Bruce.
Neil is correct, we need a time out here.
One complaint regarding The Initiative as a group seems to be identity. It has been pointed out that your discussions and comments have been spread over several threads and sites. Perhaps what The Initiative needs is a place to call home.
I have approached Troy with the idea of creating The-Initiative forum site. Here will be a place where as a group, you will have your own identity with control over your own destiny.
As a Part 15 broadcaster, who wouldn't want a little more coverage. Everyone agrees it will be an uphill struggle to accomplish this. To succeed, first your organizations idea has to be well founded.
In your favor there are examples where higher power levels are used, apparently with no conflict; i.e. New Zealand and Canada. Right now that seems to be the only thing you can point too. The "proof" presented so far only relates to the fact that a particular transmitter operated at 1 watt does not produce out of band interference such as spurs and harmonics. That does not prove that said transmitter wouldn't interfere with licensed stations in close proximity.
In my initial post at The Initiative forum board I brought up the fact that Part 15 broadcasting could be a valuable resourse in times of peril when commercial stations are out of service such as due to natural disasters. Part 15 broadcasters have the ability to quickly relocate as needed to broadcast info related to public safety and wellfare. This seems a better argument for relaxing restrictions than "proving" there will be no harmful interference caused.
Make a fantastic presentation of how license free, low power broadcasting can be a valuable public service. The snowball may remain intact.
mram1500 Said:
I have approached Troy with the idea of creating The-Initiative forum site. Here will be a place where as a group, you will have your own identity with control over your own destiny.
MrBruce Said: Bob are you suggesting a newly designed independent forum board that is strictly related to the inititive?
Bruce.
MrBruce, with regards to the Initiative Forum, you and I are saying exactly the same thing.
It makes sense to have a private Forum, but open to anyone who has an interest in the Initiative. However, this seems to have been misinterpreted by a few in the Initiative as being a secret, passworded group, with only elite members. Heck, there was an even a post on the Part 15 Facebook page that said to one person (I will not name him) - Psst, if you want to joint a secret group, PM me for the password, as we do not want just everyone to join.
But you are not going to write a document in a Forum. It will be written by a small group of people. How those people communicate amongst themselves really does not matter - it could be e-mail or even carrier pigeon.
The comments by Station8 were really unfortunate, and they cast a bad light not only the Initiative but those associated with it, including the ALPB.
If you're going to go the unlicensed route, your biggest problem may be how everyone under the sun will be able to broadcast a mile. Consider that before deciding licensed/unlicensed.
macdev has made a point that has also bothered me... let me put it this way:
One strike against the general part 15 hobbyist is lack of the specialized technical knowledge needed to build and operate radio transmission stations.
This shortcoming is further weakened by the typical lack of test equipment and real estate needed to construct a fully compliant radio station.
The way it is, with most of us poor and operating off the edge of a table at home, we are not qualified for more than a pipsqueak power level such as Part 15.
Even with that, I still think 15.239 could be higher without risk to the spectrum, and shortwave is plumb for a new amateur license free broadcast band.
Let the Initiative take a time out and follow the leads toward a stronger foundation such as put forward by MRAM Bob, Artisan, and others.
Okay I value each and everyone of you and your input and feed back.
I can not answer for another person as to why they do or did what they do.
I can agree, that certain actions are not helping the situation and is causing people to re-think whether they want to be involved or not.
I can not say if I feel like I am helping or hurting the cause unless you tell me so.
I know it is difficult to fix what has been said by another person, but I would like some of you to understand that some people mean well, but lack the abilty to voice themselves in a civilized and professional manner.
Artisian It has been said many times behind your back that quite a few people feel you are well educated and gifted in this hobby and I have heard nothing but possitive things said about you.
I can understand you have a life outside of part 15 and the forum boards that relate to it. It was felt that you appeared to have abandoned the inititive when those who looked up to you relied on you most. Perhaps, you were not given enough time to participate and people forgot you have a life outside of this hobby. I can personally respect that.
From this point forward, I really wish all of you reading this post will take my personal invite and get involved, I think I can convince others to sit back and give you the oppertunity to put in your two cents worth and make you feel more welcomed as a member, not an outsider.
I am not very good at typing in forums since I have BIG fingers and my mind tells my hands how to spell, but yet I constantly have to think before I hit the keys, I am great for spelling because as becuase, I just can't seem to shake that constant error I make.
Any ways, I am encouraging more people to get involved, then I think it is best that those who have less experience should step aside and allow the members to follow through who have a better way of wording things and a better attitude towards negative input and understands how the theory of radio works.
I personally think you Artisian, might be the right person to take control, but if that was offered to you would you do it? I am not ruling out anyone else out there, because to tell you the truth, many of you here are capable and know the ropes about the different aspects of broadcasting, including but not limited to LW/SW/AM and FM and your involment is most crucial to the hobby's future. We do need a lead person and we need advisors who have the background, knowledge and understanding of how all this stuff works. <-- That statement has no limitations.
Bruce.
Let this be a Petition to "Officially Look the Other Way" and declare a blanket amnesty to member Jeff Station8 with no recriminations for the small upset.
Jeff is more Part 15 than anyone, having more transmitters and heading up the large manual collection for the ALPB website.
Nod your head YES if you agree that Jeff is just as welcome as he ever was.
I once became upset over something and it didn't go on my permanent record, and that's the way it should be.
Jeff, Station8, is a valued member of this forum and is passionate about improving Part 15 experiences for all of us.
Neil
Re Station8 - agreed.
@MrBruce - I stepped away from the Initiative for a number of reasons, and I do not think this is the time or place to get into them.
I also think that before any offer of leadership is made, it should be passed by the rest of the current membership.
That being said, I am willing to step up and facilitate an objectives brainstorming session. All interested parties should be able to attend, or at the very least, submit comments beforehand (the exact details to be worked out at a later date). The purpose would be to get all possibilities for moving forward out in the open, and to decide upon the path to pursue. The latter might need another session, it really depends on what happens.
The eventual deliverable would be a statement clearly laying out what the Initiative is going to ask for, and the reasons why. A team to actually work on a document can then be formed, with the leadership issue resolved at that point (if it is necessary). And, quite frankly, people can decide if they are in or out of the whole thing - you cannot make such a decision until you know what you are doing.
We would probably be looking at a month out, so that there is time to get the word out, prepare the session ground rules and make them public, get people signed up to attend or prepare comments, etc.
And there is really no rush for deciding - I think everyone involved now has to be comfortable with it.
A website has been given to me separate from ALPB and part 15 (dot) us. We can have a public comment section, and a private construction room. I have hot had the time to read all the documents of pro boards, but once I figure it out we will have that site. This will include both the secure private room and the public room which I'll probably call The Lobby. The Private room may be called Contruction Room.
Agree fully that the current part 15 rules are way to restrictive espcially on FM.
Remember a few years ago there was something on the news about a New Zealand system being adopted by the FCC but was shelved.
Also agree the antenna rule(or power) can be relaxed on AM also.
The big corporations will have other ideas and more than likely it won't change but that doesn't mean it's not worth a try.....better to try and fail than never try at all.
As for me personally, this is all about part 15 rules. I don't live and vote in the USA and the FCC or congress men an women don't care what an outsider thinks.
Because of that I can't see how I can help much....from Canada.
Mark
Mark Said:
Because of that I can't see how I can help much....from Canada.
MrBruce Said:
Mark, you have a voice and knowledge and both account for a lot.
Bruce.
Mark you've helped me alot (we son't go into it all here). So I would gladly give you the passcode to the private room. No issues with me since I know you and know you are trusted. Nuff said there. I'd really like to see you there to put in your input. Once we have our own site going which there is a post about it here you won't even have to be an ALPB member to be in the public forum. The private part you still need the pass which I'll give to you once I can figure how to make sure its not viewable unless you have the password. Get back with me with a way we can talk about it. Can you call USA numbers without a toll? If so you can call my Rockline on my station's webpage. Rock on dude.
Based on this last post, I still see no evidence that the widespread objections to the Initiative Forum are being listened to.
Is this room with a Super Secret password a tool to get the job done, or a reward to individuals who happen to share the viewpoints of existing members of the Initiative? In other words, is it the equivalent of a private men's club?
I can tell you from experience that the existance of a Forum in and of itself is not going to get your petition written. It's just a tool to help you, but there are many tools that could be used. It's one of those technical traps - so easy to resolve, and makes you feel you're accomplishing something - and yet it distracts you from addressing the real problems.
And while I can see the value in a private room where the document writing team could communicate, I would argue against it. The collaboration that is required in the mechanics of writing a document can be accomplished by other means such as e-mail (which is way more time effective). I think it's far more important that the discussions surrounding the content of the document be seen as being totally open, with no back room influence.
If you're going to convince people to spend time and effort to help you, you can't afford to have them even think that that time and effort could literally be thrown away because the boys in the back room didn't like what they came up with. Why bother doing it otherwise?
My offer to facilitate an objectives brainstorming session is still open. But that's all I'm committing to. I believe that the team needs to take a long hard look at what it's really after, and whether it really does want input from others, or just validation for what they already think.