But you've just reiterated my statement. To a typical home radio used by a regular person (not a radio geek) picking up a legal Part 15 FM station at 200 feet or more would be a very iffy proposition.
The FCC's own website states a Part 15 FM station has a maximum coverage of about 200 feet! It's right here: https://www.fcc.gov/guides/low-power-broadcast-radio-stations#PART15
Of course given the right conditions many things are possible. With a good line of sight and a good receiver or radio, perhaps with an auxiliary receiving antenna, I'm sure a legal Part 15 FM can be heard more than 200 feet. But to base the operation of a station on the idea that under top notch circumstances you'll have people listening 500+ feet, I believe is false hope. There is always talk about how they need to be on FM because their chosen format sounds bad on AM. Well, how does it sound on marginal reception, with stereo/mono cutting out and background static? I recall well my high school days, 1972 - 1976 listening to what is now considered "classic rock" on AM radio and it seemed to rock out just fine. Pink Floyd or Yes are pretty bad on AM, but Led Zepplin, Deep Purple, Foghat, Nazareth, and all the others kicked out the jams just fine. But you just said it's now been proven that Part 15 FM can go more than 200 feet, and then said you probably wouldn't be able to listen to it on a typical household radio even at 200 feet.
I've noticed two things that no member EVER states clearly on the forum. If they're licensed to broadcast their music, and their AM field strength. Remember, being licensed to STREAM does NOT cover BROADCASTING (at least not in the USA). But if you are already paying for broadcasting the music on the air you get a better price for stream licensing. I'm betting less than 10% of the stations here on the air have a signed contract with BMI in their files. If others are licensed by ASCAP I'd like to hear how they did it, as ASCAP has ignored me, but accepted my money (story posted elsewhere). SESAC sent me a waiver, stating a license was not needed. Here in the USA ANYONE broadcasting music with the intent of the public listening to it needs to have the music licensed through all three performing rights organizations. There are three. BMI makes it easy with a form on their website. ASCAP is probably the worst outfit I've EVER tried to communicate with. And SESAC reponded promptly with a waiver for me.
As much as I'd like to see it, I can't imagine that there's any chance there will be a new service or increased power for neighborhood or hobby broadcasting in the USA. I can also tell you that if it DID happen, I'd be in line to add FM to my broadcasting, and I'd gladly support any sort of organized effort to make it happen. For any chance for this to happen you need an organized group of many. MANY. Like a couple thousand. In an organized recognized organization. I do not believe the ALPB as it is now can be that. It's a great group of broadcasters but a legal effort will require an organized group that will be recognized as such. And to be taken seriously you'll need a solid group with officers, rosters, dues paid, etc. It wouldn't hurt to have a liason in Washington who works with the FCC, and even a few congressmen to encourage the FCC that this is needed. I've watch the process for FCC rules to be changed over many years in the business, and an attempt to change this that isn't top notch professionally done will be easily poopooed by the FCC, and will also make it easy for them to reject future proposals as well.
Tim in Bovey
Club DJ's licensing is completely different. For MOST cases a club DJ is playing in a club that already HAS it's own license that covers music performed for their patrons in their venue. This is how a band is able to play in a bar without having their own license for the music they play. Coffee shops with entertainment have licenses for the music. Bars have a license for the music played on the jukebox (often figured into the cost for the jukebox). But often a DJ will perform at a venue where they are not licensed and he must be to play the music, hence he needs a license.
A license for playing music in a club as a DJ will not in any way cover you for broadcasting music on the air. It will cover you specifically for playing music in a club that doesn't have it's own license, and only up to a certain capacity. Unless you have a license that specifically states broadcasting you are not covered. Further, they don't go by how many are listening, they go by how many CAN listen. e.g. my signal easily covers a population of 2,500 people. If only 6 listen, that doesn't matter. 2,500 COULD listen. Just like when I licensed music for a kids dance program -- the rights cost was based on how many seats were available, not how many tickets were sold. There *could* have been 1800 people there, so that's what we paid, based on a ticket price of $5 a seat. Broadcast license also takes into account the stations income. If you're not generating $10,000 a year you're going to get the lowest rate. Your DJ license will NOT cover broadcasting, and you must have ALL THREE PRO's (performing rights organizations) licenses, unless of course you limit your programming to just BMI music, for example. Coverage/potential listenership and yearly revenue determine the cost of your broadcasting music license.
The thing with EAS is... you want to be a station with listeners. The FCC believes that radio listeners should be able to be informed of emergencies, from storms and natural disasters to kidnapped children and national emergencies. If you're going to try to play with the "real radio" guys they will most likely want you to be able to provide this service. Do you really want to run a radio station that won't be letting people know they're about to be wiped out by a tornado?
Really, if you want to play real radio you have to be ready to perform real radio services. And you can bet any attempt to do so will be met with resistance from the FCC, existing broadcasters (they don't think you'll get their money, they think you'll cost them listeners -- and if everyone who says they can do a better job than "real radio" even come close they will be taking some listeners from big radio) and those big radio guys will be scrutinizing all of us closely hoping to catch us doing something wrong, like not having our music licensed, etc.
Tim in Bovey
Prometheus is an organization that helped petition the FCC for LPFM. We have some members working with them. We have a chance if prometheus decides to help with VLPFM. Plus I did find out for LPFM that anyone could start an entity. I could have started one and called it The Album Rock Preservation Society and made up a charter and then set up a donation link for the cost of a LPFM station. But we are talking about a service like BETS. It can be done with hard determination from all members.
Tim, there is a difference between what you're saying and what this thread is about. Legal Part 15 FM signals can be received up to 800+ feet away.
This thread isn't about what the typical listener would use as a receiver. It isn't even about increasing Part 15 field strength except peripherally. It isn't about the ALPB. And it isn't about music licensing.
All those topics are very interesting and need to be discussed. In fact, many have already been discussed and are still being discussed right now in other threads.
I think this particular thread is very important. It dispels a lot of the misinformation floating around about Part 15 FM range, and it does it not by theory and math, but by experience. Although the theory and math back up that experience.
Scroll through to near the end of this manual (page 13)
https://sourcefmtransmitter.com/wp-content/uploads/FM100BWT-manual.pdf
A field strength of 3.8uV at 630 feet.
And the manual does say it will transmit down the block. Just like I thought. I really don't know where the FCC cme up with the 250 Ft statement, but maybe the rules were written so long ago that its just a little dated without real world testing. I've heard people so paranoid that they would adjust their transmitter not to go out of their house. That's fine if your just messing around and don't want your signal to reach any neighbors. But in real world experience if your transmitter goes down the block I don't think anyone is gonna send a swat team after you Unless your using a frequency that is not blank. But again that is just my opinion and you know what they say about them. But I can tell you from public places that use these FM Transmitters which certainly go way beyond their property and this is for years. I'd go with the 600-800 Ft as was tested and call it a day. If the FCC knocks at your door I'd be nice and tell them you were trying to follow the rules and I'd also let the agent know you'll knock down the power. Let the agent watch you do it if he wants peice of mind. Heck he can video tape you lowering the power of the transmitter. Again IMHO if you don't go way beyond what other's have claimed their transmitter will go out of the box you're cool with the FCC. I'd still stay away from Metro areas with an FM transmitter or make it only go a house away from yours or two. Even on Youtube the demo was done on the WHT 2.0 and you can clearly see it goes beyond the yard and that was with the short wire it came with. The guy said he didn't change a thing just opened the box and put it on a blank frequency and sat it next to the window of his house. His seemed to transmit horizontal as he layed the yard radio down and was able to hear the transmitter better. The wire was just dropping down so I can see that could happen.
Well, after all according to the FCC our LPFM should only have a usable range of 3 miles for our ERP. I'm referring to the 60 dbu contour. Instead we have a decent signal at 10 miles.
Perhaps their interpretation of usable signal differs from those that are just happy to know the signal is there!
I think they mean Full Quieting No hiss what so ever! And in the real world I can tell you that people listen to stations with some background hiss I've heard it and not just from a Radio geek. If someone really likes your station they will stand on their head to try and pull it in. To a certain degree. They will move the antenna around, put the Radio next to a window if they have to. I've seen it to a certain point even with folks who don't know much about Radio. I don't know what the FCC means by "Usable". Real world is better than a bunch of numbers on paper. You don't know till you try to see how far your station can go. I was told at WOCR which was a 10 watt college station that their signal would ONLY go 5-10 miles tops. I laughed at the teacher and he said "do you want to stand in the hall?" I said no, but Mr. Stewart I can prove I can pick up this station 40 miles away! The whole class laughed at me. I said Really I can prove I can pick up this very station 40 miles away and I'll go to my house 40 miles away and tune in. My teacher said "Even with an outside antenna your not gonna pick this station up 40 miles away no matter mono or Stereo or what you say." I told him If I can prove I can pick up this station 40 miles away with a Technics Digital Stereo and a Radio Shack 150 mile FM antenna costing $30 you have to buy me a lunch because I can prove I can do it. He agreed and I went home and recorded the whole show from my house and even called the station and requested a song from Ted Nugent - Great White buffalo and had the DJ mention my name. The next day I brought my boombox with the tape to class and showed the whole entire class that he was wrong and I could certainly pick up the station 40 miles away. The whole class at WOCR started to take how they acted on air a whole lot more seriously as I've proven that 10 watts to a good receiver will go 40 miles. I even proved I could pick up the station 25 miles on my Digital Boom box which at the time was a Sony I think. It was the first Digital boom box out around that time and I paid a fortune for it.
The fcc is not going to show up with a more sensitive than average radio, say they can recieve a signal at 201 feet and issue a NOUO. The fcc could (not necessarily will) come with a field strength meter and measure 251uv/m@3m and issue a NOUO. In my opinion the biggest threat to part 15 FM operations are people offended by the contrnt or people who feel it is their duty to police the air waves.
If someone (a dedicated listener?) really wanted to recieve a part 15 signal the range limit would be when a super high gain (very directional) antenna could not gather more signal than noise.
Regard my post # 28 and Tim's post #32 About Licensed music.
I know this post continues to bring this thread off topic, but I just wanted to clarify post number #28 a bit. Long story short traveling DJs who take a laptop to public events have to pay for their right to use that music, because they are making a living on another person's work. Traveling DJs do not just entertain in night clubs, they also entertain in back yard weddings and other outdoor events such as birthday parties, stag parties that are held outside of any club or bar that might have a permit to cover such entertainment. So how would that music be covered? Certainly if I have a birthday party in my back yard with a hired DJ, I'm not the one who has to get a permit or license to cover the music he or she plays, that is up to them to cover that right.
If I was a member of band who recorded music for a record label and I went to an event at a friend's house and that friend hired a DJ with a laptop and large speakers and that DJ was hired at a cost of $500.00 for 6 hours and that DJ played a song my band released and I realized that I was not being compensated for that public exhibition of my song, I could hold that DJ in violation of copyright laws. He has no permits or license to use my music in a public exhibition.
If someone is going to get paid as a business to play my song and I get nothing in return, not even 1 cent per song, I'm not going to be happy.
I used a poor example and wording in the first place in post #26 and should have rewrote that entire post, instead, I edited it and left the entire post a mess with editing parts of it because I was being distracted with getting Zara Radio play list rebuilt and did not check back until my edit time had run out. But reading back now, I see things I thought I corrected, but didn't.
Music licensing packages cover different things. IF you are NOT streaming the music on line to a public server where you have a potential listener audience of 100 to 1000 listeners, why would you pay a fee for that right?
A part 15 radio station can apply for fair use licensing at a very reduced cost, a part 15 station is a non profit. Although a part 15 can sell on air advertising, the likelihood of that a part 15 home brew radio station covering the same ground as a full powered commercial station is very unlikely and impossible.
Therefore, a home brew part 15 radio station can apply for a special package that costs very little and covers the fair use act.
Since I did not stream, I did not have to use stream licensing. Most of you that play with part 15 transmitters also stream your station on line. Therefore, your music licensing fees are covering your on line steam.
My first contact was with BMI and ASCAP, although I am not promoting any agency or service, I was recommended a package deal that cost me very little per month and a subscriber ONLY download site for the music I was licensed to carry under that agreement.
Most honest traveling DJs I know do have to pay for the right to use the music that they do. They download their music from subscription only websites. The dishonest ones download their music for free off of mp3 download websites, most of which eventually get shut down by the RIAA.
MP3s masquerading as ring tones, are also illegal because they contain the whole original, uncut unedited version of the song not just a promotional 10 to 20 second version of that song.
Okay now back to the topic, sorry I took this off topic.
Bruce.
That was what I thought. The FCC would not waste time on a 1/4 mile signal unless one or two of these events took place. In a larger area you stand a bigger chance even if you follow the rules. Though the Christmas town station was in a well known area and I dont know if they were harassed or not, but they are still doing it. It goes close to 1/4 mile on FM.
Something related to it.
In about 1992 I built a Ramsey FM-10
FM transmitter. Not the easiest transmitter
to run, but a blast nevertheless.
It was not synthesized in any way. It was a
free running osc. on the FM band with some
amplification.
I built it and paid a lot of attention to the chart
in the manual. You can refer to the above post
from WDCX (I think) that brought the subject up.
To this day, I'm confused. My Ramsey FM-10 sat on
a table on the second floor in my house. I went for
range that I felt corresponded to the chart. In order
to do this - I had to collapse the whip antenna on the
Ramsey FM-10 a bit.
I seemed to get it about right on the car radio. Around
600 to 800 feet from the house, the signal started to
get noisey. By the time the car got to the stoplight at
the top of the hill - about 1000 feet - the signal was
75 percent into the noise. Across the street it was
gone. I was satisfied that I was legal, according to the
chart. It seemed OK to me. Starting a family overrode
Part 15 like a 200 pound gorilla stomping on a one celled
creature. However, the FM10 transmitter was always on
my mind. There were all sorts of mods for the transmitter
to make it work better all over the new internet.
I put a fan on mine, and figured out how to get it stable
- because it drifted - just like all the other FM10s in the
world. One guy even made an oven with a thermostat.
(An oven like a crystal oven in transmit gear.) It worked.
OK - so in reading all of this mod stuff, I found that the
RF output on a stock Ramsey FM-10 was 5 mw. 5 mW?
I have been confused to this day. I have heard from
talks on here that the Part 15.239 field strength is
achieved with about 17 nanowatts. ????? I don't get it.
5 mW is tons more than 17 nanowatts. Did the walls
of my house provide that much attenuation?
Am I being clear here? I have always been confused.
Since I saw the reference to the Ramsey chart, I thought
I would throw this into the big pot that is all of these threads
on Part 15 FM, which for me, has been very interesing.
Brooce, DOGRADIO