You don't need a note from me. Just look at their websites and use some deductive reasoning. Only BMI requires a Part 15 license, the other two don't. Does that mean ASCAP and SESAC are unaware of Part 15 radio? Of course, they know about it. Why wouldn't they know since they all use the same basic standard venues and criteria to charge license fees? Plus, BMI has had their Part 15 license agreement out for several years. Don't you think the others would have followed suit by now?
Occasionally some boy scout comes along and kicks the hornet's nest and essentially begs ASCAP to charge them. If enough of them kick the nest then, yes, ASCAP and SESAC might assume, wrongly, that Part 15 radio is big enough that it's worth charging a license fee. This ruins it for those of us who run a station as a hobby or, in my case, a community service with zero compensation. I'm already paying enough through BMI. Add to it the CRB minimum rate for those who web stream (I don't) and it gets really expensive, really fast.
So, like I said, leave it alone. Don't ruin it for the rest of us.
I can think of several dozen ways to use music that is not mentioned on the PRO's websites.
Guess it's free if it's not posted, eh? That's not a way for me to run a business.
Odd that it was "all hashed out in 2006" but there's not one word published about it anyplace. Not one spec of documentation.
I have my paperwork. My work here is done. And I assume every other broadcaster here has sent their checks to BMI, right?
You're right, however. I was a Boy Scout. But I wasn't trying to get them to take my money, I was trying to get any sort of actual documentation that I can legally broadcast their music, free or not. So, even though this was apparently secretly settled, probably in some late night underground meeting at an undisclosed meeting, I am now apparently the only person on the planet who has actual documents stating that ASCAP and SESAC not only don't license Part 15 Stations, but that I in fact have permission to broadcast their music. Just being told that they don't issue a license for that doesn't mean it's OK. The state doesn't issue a license allowing me to drive 120 MPH, but that doesn't make it legal if I choose to do so. The laws of copyright require permission for public performance. it doesn't require PAYMENT, if requires PERMISSION, that you may, or may not have to pay for.
TIB
I work full time at two local radio stations. We are live. Programming originates in our studios. I'm on live every morning from 6-10 AM. Have been, here, for 28 years, and in my career on the air live since 1973.
So, while a good chunk of stations are part of giant faceless conglomerations, there are an awful lot of live, local, real stations on the air.
When I went on the air, TWO real stations contacted my boss to see if he knew about the PIRATE in the area. As he is an elightened man, he allowed me to respond to them. One of whom insisted there's NO WAY a hobby station is allowed to sell ads. I straightened him out. It's all in another thread here someplace.
TIB
Like I said, if they are really worried about a part 15 they have bigger issues. Now if they thought it was a pirate, thats another story.
I'm on the side of don't ruin it for everyone, again I applaud you for going about it legal. But begging them is insane and extremely destructive to the hobby as a whole. The reason theres no publication, no one cares. No one ever cared and they will continue not caring until enough people bother them about it. Thats the ONLY reason BMI has a Part 15 license, they were pestered for it.
Comparing this to a traffic ticket is a bit of a stretch and a completely different beast. If you run a station strictly as a hobby with no ads, knock yourself out and ignore BMI. You run ads, you pay and even then that wasn't always the case.
If you are legal what harm is a commercial broadcaster going to cause you? No broadcaster in their right mind is going to send the feds after you, that just opens the ENTIRE market to inspection. Not many stations can afford to be inspected, and many others would rather not deal with the hassle. And the "PROs" you keep talking about are NOT going to waste their time to go after a flippin radio station that transmits with less power than a standard LED. That would be stupid.
This has come up in past posts but I will post again my thoughts on this. I'm in Canada and here Socan is the organization of concern.
First I want to stress that Socan is NOT an arm of the government and has NO law enforcement power....they are a private organization.If I were to take my guitar outside and play elvis songs sitting outside on my porch in public so anyone outside can hear, can they come along playing mafia and say you have to pay us to do this?....the person from the house across the street could do that too.
Anyway, putting that aside, Artisan Radio, my fellow Canadian part 15 forum member, has said on this forum that they didn't want his money as the on air part of the station was to micky mouse for them to even care.
I, a little while ago, called Socan on the phone, and talked to someone there and after trying to explain BETS-1(part 15) to him he had no idea and asked what are you playing and how many listners do you have? I said my format and maybe if 2 or 3 people were listening that would be good! He asked my operating expense and I said there is no operating expense, just a one time purchase of a transmitter, compressor and a music source....$500 at most. "well I really don't know anything about this I'll have to get back to you". OK, here's my number let me know what's what. Can I have your name please?.....He told me his name and I didn't remember 'cause I needed to learn another language to pronounce it! Waited hear back, never did and really couldn't care less.
Oh ya, didn't Artisan also say that in Canada if the song is 50 years old or more then it's public domain?(correct me if I'm wrong). If that's true I could change my format to not include songs after 1965.....licence exempt?
Here's the Socan rules with non commercial broadcasting:
The fee is 1.9% of your operating cost.....in my case, what operating cost?
That's my input on this....
Mark
Well... Since your operating cost is nill, maybe you can give them 1.9% of your time doing community service.. but wait.. your station is community service. Maybe they should pay you.
SOCAN licenses the song (and pays songwriters). Until a song passes into the public domain, you have to pay them (if they'll take your money).
ReSound licenses actual performances of a song. Performances pass into the public domain 50 years after they were released (marked by the end of the calendar year). If you play a performance and it isn't in the public domain (i.e., 1965 or after, until the end of the year, then 1966 or after) then you have to pay them licensing fees.
I ended up paying the minimum - $100 + tax - to SOCAN for my streaming, as I have no revenue. They were quite happy to ignore the over-the-air component of my station, as they did get some money from me. If you only have an over-the-air component, they might still want some money from you (they do go after small venues such as stores for playing copyrighted music). But you're right - they don't know what BETS-1 is. I would e-mail them rather than talk over the phone, as at least you'll have a 'paper' trail in the event they come back at you with anything.
I've never dealt with ReSound. At first, I didn't really know what they did, and when I found out, I just changed my format to all oldies pre 1965.
It is illegal to broadcast copyrighted material, including music, intentionally to others outside your household without being licensed (or having the appropriate permission to do so).
Going after the licensing organizations to ensure that you are legal isn't ruining it for everyone. It's doing your legal due diligence and it's identical to ensuring that your transmitter is compliant with the FCC Part 15 (or Industry Canada BETS-1) regulations.
How can you justify saying on the one hand that it's OK to pirate music while broadcasting, but it's not OK, as an example, to run a field strength for FM that is over the Part 15.239 limits?
You may be able to get away with it. There may be lots of people, including some who work at radio stations, that don't care. But it's on you if you decide to do so.
I applaud Tim for being persistent on this. I'd do the same thing (in fact, I did just that in Canada). And currently, even though I run a radio station primarily for myself (and the few that know about it, mostly from here) with no revenue, I pay money out of my own pocket to ensure that I am being legal in this area.
I don't consider part 15 radio capable of music piracy, due to obvious technical and fidelity shortcomings. Unless you are actively making money with it, I really wouldn't bother with it.
I do understand the professional part of it, but for the rest of us this is just a hobby that really can't afford extra expenses.
I am glad you have pretty much found out that most PRO's don't care about part 15 Hobby Radio. As an Internet broadcaster and a hobbyest my station could be in jeopardy if the PRO's get their way. However StreamLicensing is prepared to start petitions to alleviate these high costs for small webcasters as its not fair to expect us to pay the same rates as HUGE corporations do. Hobby Radio should be considered different than full cash cow stations. Hobby Radio is a station that does it for the fun and serving of a different sort of audience. In my case it is an Elite set of Album Rockers. These folks are tired of Rap and Top 40 killing creative Rock talent on Radio. As far as I'm concerned I should get a metal for being a Rock and Roll savior to a musical appreciative crowd. Some already show their appreciation in way of donations. If the music is played and becomes out in the open to the public I am sure more people will buy it. My station already has an Amazon click to buy option for the songs I play. This helps artists not hurt them. Raising rates and or requiring payment for a station that has 2-10 listeners is shooting the artists in the foot and impairing their ability to be well known. This is why I'll always be totally against any payment to the PRO's for part 15 Radio (Even LPFM). The government has bigger fish to fry (ISIS should be #1) and if going after part 15 Radio ever becomes top 10 then we really have our priorities out of whack. At that point we may as well change the flag so that the stars are replaced with dollar signs.
No, of course a station doesn't call the "feds" on another station, exactly because they'd likely inspect everyone while they were in the area. But they WOULD call their BMI or ASCAP rep if they felt a "pirate" was broadcasting unlicensed music.
Yes, commercial stations will consider you a threat. Assuming you're not laying low, and operating as a real station. I run ads for free for local businesses. What do you think happens when an area commercial station stops in a shop, pitches some ads, and they say "but I get free ads on KEBS here in town, why should I pay you $55 per spot?" And they have NO idea who KEBS radio is, and have NO concept of Part 15, and want to know what the hell is going on! Yes, you're a threat. Maybe a teeny tiny one. But if you're messing with their ad revenue or taking away one listener, you're a threat. I can promise you a small town station sales rep who loses even a tiny sale because a potential client gets free or really cheap ads on your station will consider you a threat. And he'll whine to the sales manager or station owner about it, and I can promise you he'll jump to all sorts of conclusions and investigate. As you'll recall I've already been down that road and come out quite victorious.
The music PRO's DO make regular passes through nearly every town, city and community in the country. There have been instances over the past year up here, and down in Topeka where my Son lives, where they've found bars, coffee shops, malls, stores, etc that were playing music and not licensed. Bars have been shut down. Bar owners who find out their competitor across the street don't have the license for music have ratted them out. SMall Mom and Pop businesses have been sued and gone out of business. News stories about this sort of thing are all over local papers ane news reports. Google for a few stories. Do you think for a second that while passing through the area these reps don't scan the radio dial? Think they might notice an office on main street, or a highway sign with a station that's not on their list? Think they wouldn't check that out? Heck just a month or so ago a fella passing through the area on the highway saw my "Adopt a Highway" sign, tuned in and posted a video of listening to me on the Part 15 Facebook group. Think the BMI guy won't do that too? Granted, probably not an issue for those of you who just fire it up and don't advertise it. However the laws are the same whether you're making a big deal out of it, or hiding it under a bushel basket.
TIB
I honestly don't think they would Tim, I really really don't. There is no law or rule about music licensing for part 15, why do you think it was so difficult to get them to even acknowledge you? Granted you seem to have had some interesting experiences with this, I firmly believe this is a rare occurrence.
A bar or any storefront business is going to have far more people hear a song in than a part 15 station will ever have the chance to serve. Again, if a station has ANY problem selling local ads because a part 15 stole it, thats on them. A good sales rep can get around that. My local full power competes with a local shopper paper, which is more or less the equivalent of a part 15. This paper causes us no harm because we know how to sell.
Of course, like I have maintained the entire time, if you are running it as a business you need to pay. Otherwise forget it.
Also don't give sales reps so much credit, I'd be surprised if many would know KEBS (or any station for that matter) wasn't licensed.
everytime this topic comes up i want to facepalm. just make it a sticky!!!!
if you run your part 15 as a business and/or publicly stream you need licensing,
if you are a home hobbyist entertaining your neighborhood you don't need licensing!!!!
it is that simple geeze!!!!
this topic is as bad as the ground lead issue.
Agreed KC8GPD.
I remember the old logs from ASCAP and BMI in the mid-60s--I think it was for two weeks each per year. We had to write down the name of the song, the composer, publisher etc. What a pain! So, (now I can tell the story) when I was doing an ASCAP log, I would only play BMI songs and when I was doing a BMI log, I would only play ASCAP songs. My boss thought it was funny and we never heard anything from the two organizations. I wonder if they even looked at them.
By the way, (only a little off topic) those also were the days when the FCC would just show up and see if we were keeping the transmitter reading logs up-to-date every half hour. We were AM & FM (AM was daytime only) and one day I missed the AM 5 o'clock sign-off by a minute or so, and indeed I heard about it from the FCC.