So where as both situations result in improved far field signal, one method is and the other method is not OK.
I wrote that monopole system radiation from buried horizontal wires, and also from elevated horizontal wires used as a counterpoise is negligible in the far field. All of the useful far-field radiation from both systems is launched by the monopole, itself.
Under FCC ¶15.239(b), unburied "ground" conductors of every physical orientation are not allowed if they extend the length of whatever is connected to the r-f output connector of the transmitter plus the those "ground" conductors to a total of more than three meters.
The position of the FCC as to whether or not elevated horizontal wires used as a counterpoise for, and/or to "top load" a monopole must be included in the 3 meter total permitted by ¶15.239(b) is unknown (to me, anyway).
"Under FCC ¶15.239(b), unburied "ground" conductors of every physical orientation are not allowed"
But, "The position of the FCC as to whether or not elevated horizontal wires used as a counterpoise for, and/or to "top load" a monopole must be included in the 3 meter total permitted by ¶15.239(b) is unknown".
This makes it very difficult to determine what is or is not acceptable. A counterpoise serves as an RF ground system. When unburied it must be symetrical as opposed to a buried "offset" counterpoise so as not to radiate. The same applies to top hat loading.
So, what you have told us is per ¶15.239(b) ALL UNBURIED GROUND CONDUCTORS OF EVERY PHYSICAL ORIENTATION ARE NOT ALLOWED and the position of the FCC on elevated (unburied), non-radiating ground systems is unknown.
Arrrrguh...
So, what you have told us is per ¶15.239(b) ALL UNBURIED GROUND CONDUCTORS OF EVERY PHYSICAL ORIENTATION ARE NOT ALLOWED
continuing with rest of the text I posted in that sentence:
if they extend the length of whatever is connected to the r-f output connector of the transmitter plus the those "ground" conductors to a total of more than three meters.
Sorry about the 15.239(b), my error. Of course the rule is 15.219(b).
I have the rules opened to 15.239 (b) and it doesn't say a word about horizontal conductors on the ground.
Just to be sure, I am holding the rules upside down but... nope. Nothing.
15.219 (b) "The total length of the transmission line, antenna and ground lead (if used) shall not exceed 3 meters."
That is the most often quoted rule of them all, but also the most misunderstood. Let me explain.
The sentence is a condensed form of legal scripture which, if more fully expressed, says:
"The total length EACH of the transmission line, antenna and ground lead shall not exceed three meters."
Most readers have erroneously thought it to say:
"The total length COMBINED of the transmission line, antenna and ground lead shall not exceed three meters."
Still, in continuing with previous posts, it says NOTHING about horizontal ground wires nor ground at all, refering only to a ground lead, which is not the same thing as ground.
Ground may be defined as any physical material on the surface of or buried in the earth, but the term ground also applies to buildings made of earth materials which can be viewed as man-made mountains, hills or cliffs.
From an EMC Seminar I attended back in the day: "Ground is not ground the earth round." Glen Dash, BSEE/J.D.
John WDCX would have us merge the secular science of RF technology with the biblical quotation of a bee-keeping Jesuit from Dakota?
Rich, I didn't even notice the typo 15.239 as I was transfixed upon the rest of the text.
And yes, "if they extend the length of whatever is connected to the r-f output connector of the transmitter plus the those "ground" conductors to a total of more than three meters" is understood.
The confusion is still the fact that all unburied ground conductors of every physical orientation are not allowed and yet the FCC position on elevated counterpoise systems is unknown even though such would be unburied RF ground conductors as the counterpoise is and RF ground system as far as the antenna is concerned.
The confusion is still the fact that all unburied ground conductors of every physical orientation are not allowed
MRAM: NO - that is NOT what I wrote.
I wrote that FCC ¶15.219(b) allows unburied "ground" wires of any physical orientation as long as they don't extend the radiating conductors of the antenna system to a total length beyond three meters.
You say - "I wrote that FCC ¶15.219(b) allows unburied "ground" wires of any physical orientation as long as they don't extend the radiating conductors of the antenna system to a total length beyond three meters."
But where does the FCC say that?
But where does the FCC say that?
FCC ¶15.219(b) doesn't address the physical orientations of any of the wires comprising the antenna, transmission line, or ground lead. But it does limit the sum of their lengths to three meters. "Anything goes" as long as the total radiating length of the antenna system does not exceed three meters.
A wire or wires buried in the earth are not, by definition, a ground lead. But all of the unburied wire lengths leading from the transmitter chassis to the connection point of the ground lead TO such buried wires/conductors ARE included in the length of the ground lead.
Buried conductors used with a Part 15 AM setup such as ground rods and radials are part of the r-f ground network to which the ground lead(s) permitted by FCC ¶15.219(b) may connect.
Part 15 doesn't say this in so many words, but physics (and due analysis) shows this to be true.
Ok Rich, I didn't reprint your entire statement but I thought it was clear that I had acknowledged your were talking about unburied wire which extend the total length beyond 3 meters. I acknowledged what you have reiterated. I did not miss your point.
To quote my response quoteing your response-"And yes, "if they extend the length of whatever is connected to the r-f output connector of the transmitter plus the those "ground" conductors to a total of more than three meters" is understood.
See, I didn't miss your point that unburied wires extending the total length to more than 3 meters are not allowed. Your complete text is "unburied "ground" conductors of every physical orientation are not allowed if they extend the length of whatever is connected to the r-f output connector of the transmitter plus the those "ground" conductors to a total of more than three meters."
So, now that we both agree that any wires attached to the r-f connector of the transmitter plus those "ground" conductors which extend the total to more than three meters is not allowed under FCC ¶15.219(b) how can you say the FCC's position on an elevated counterpoise attached to said system or top hat load attached to said system is unknown? These are both comprised of "wires of every physical orientation" which are not buried, connected to the antenna system (to include lead in cable, antenna and ground) and causing the total length to extend beyond the permitted 3 meters.
And please don't answer: NO YOU'VE MISSED THE POINT! Your point is that unburied wires are allowed to be connected to the antenna system as long as they don't extend the total length beyond the permitted 3 meters.
Does anyone else think I'm missing the point?
I'm sweatin' here...
Does anyone else think I'm missing the point?
I certainly don't. I am quite surprised that Richard Fry (of all people!) made the statement that the FCC's position on an elevated counterpoise attached to said system or top hat load attached to said system is unknown..
There is a definate contridiction evident.
Most comments made since Post # 20 - "Time to Rethink" are outdated.
I have provided a corrected interpretation of 15.219 and there's no longer a reason to repeat the old and mistaken version.
Richard Fry (of all people!) made the statement that the FCC's position on an elevated counterpoise attached to said system or top hat load attached to said system is unknown. There is a definate contridiction evident.
I and others may have missed it, End 80, so if you have accurate knowledge of the specific position of the FCC about the use of elevated counterpoises and/or top-hat loading with Part 15 AM systems, would you mind posting such facts in this thread?
Many thanks.