Why open it to the general public? So the clown gallery over at the other site can sit in their private forum and mock every thing we say before it even has a chance to make sense?
Get mad for my speaking the truth, but I am not going to sit here and lie for someone who says "oh we weren't bad mouthing you guys over here." BullS**T I know differently!
You want the forum to be open to the general public, for what? Do you allow your private telephone calls to be monitored by the general public? I think not.
I really can't see why people want to say you're part of the intitive and all you have to offer is IT ISN'T HAPPENING! IT'S A PIPE DREAM!! Listen if I really want to hear BF I'll go over and read his forum board and have a laff.
If this is any indiaction of the support we are losing, then so be it. Why not tell Hillary Clinton to stop running for president, becasue her dream of being the FIRST WOMAN PRESIDENT is a pipe dream, just like people told Obama, you're not going to be our first black president so drop out. If he was brainwashed into believeing that, those who said that would be right. Same with Hillary and we all know she's going to win, the blacks and women believe she's for them and they both over power the lone male vote.
So, why should we cave in because a bunch of people want to preach the same anti inititive jargon? The rate it is going, it will fail because that is what everyone wants it to do, fail.
I don't expect everyone to agree with anything, but, if you all shoot it down, before it is even worked out, then it will fail.
Why should the petition be out there in public view when the first words are
We the members of the inititive have proposed.....
And people say we don't like the way its worded..fail!!!!!
Is that why you want it public? So the general public can poke fun at and post their anti-inititive crap before it has any proper editing? So the clown gallery can post in their private little forum and make childish comments behind our backs?
The only people who would benefit from it being public right now are the clowns who would venture over to take a peak and talk about us behind our backs in their hidden private forum.
So sad people are taking offense and misunderstanding the point of why it is private right now, it is not to hide anything, it is not hidden to hide anything shady, it is private because we want supporters not SPYS from the clown gallery gathering information to counter act what we are working on.
Enough said.
Bruce.
I see two items here. One is the use of a private meeting place or forum for those working on the draft proposal and the other being a means to solicit public content, and both are worthy objectives, but I think they are getting confused.
The drafters are welcome to accept public comment on this site but there are a couple of caveats. If you solicit comment, negative or positive, then you should not argue with the opinions offered but use them in your private deliberations. The second is that we need to keep this topic in one thread as much as possible so it can be found by those following this initiative.
Since we have had some comments presented in this thread I propose that we use this as the comment thread and have renamed it accordingly.
Neil
Well Neil that is fine and thank you.
What we'd like to hear, is instead of comments like "it is a pipe dream" "we are dreaming the impossible dream", "it isn't happening" etc, we would really like to hear is some reliable, technical reasons for believeing such.
People dropping out just because you don't agree with what we say, is not the way to go about this, we're not dropping out just because you say its a pipe dream.
We want technical data that proves your point. Back up your statements with proof.
Bruce.
There is a huge difference between a closed forum, where individuals with a common interest meet and talk, such as a Yahoo Group (where you still have to be a member and sign in to both look and post), and an exclusive, private club, run by a few individuals. I see no reason for the latter - if the members of the Initiative are so afraid of criticism and ridicule that they have to hide behind closed doors, and filter what goes through those doors (both ways), then there really is something wrong.
Most projects fail (up to 95% of them, according to studies) because of process issues (communication, politics, requirements, etc.) and not technical ones (the technical stuff is the easy part). In my opinion, you guys just don't understand the correct process to get this kind of thing done.
Finally, I still haven't seen any definitive statement as to what the objectives and goals of the Initiative are currently. It's pretty difficult to provide any sort of feedback - except for the fact that they don't exist - until those are completed and communicated.
This is my last comment.
I honestly have no idea what to even say after all this...
Good luck guys.
I mean we TRIED to help you guys. We told you time and time again exactly what is wrong with the proposal. Every single time we get completely ignored or labeled as an enemy.
But I digress, I'll spell out again.
1.) Complete lack of Technical Data
2.) Complete lack of knowledge in FCC procedure
3.) Failure to show basic understanding of RF in the VHF band
4.) Lack of direction
There is more, but the basic is pretty much this; It does not look like you guys know what you are doing, at all. I understand that everything has to start somewhere... But as it stands the whole thing is completely DOA.
Also, who CARES what people say about your plans? You afraid they're going to tear it apart? What do you think the FCC is going to do?
As far as I can tell nobody has told anybody to stop the "initiative". If anything we've been practically begging you guys to get organized.
Hi Guys: First off i would like to say i did try to let you know about the meeting, But like everyone knew there was a bad issue going on with this site that's why i could not reply !
And when i come to this site it gives me allot of issue at times,That's why i'm not here much !
Second off in GENERAL DISCUSSION i placed a INITIATIVE PROGRAM BOARD.
NOTE: The initiative program is improvement for part 15 !
That was for everyone to place there inputs on why part 15 improvement would work or not work and there reason why ? I have NOT seen NO response there! And why didn't you use it ?
It's better to see the information in one forum instead of several forum that's why it was created ! Tracing information down would be to difficult to due on several boards !
We have been taking what idea you have mention to use. Personally i have made note !
The initiative program as it stand for now where in research and development's at this point!
And what this means is where still looking for various document for LW, AM, SW, FM.
And also the reason why for improvement to part 15,We are keeping an open mind to all no matter what the outcome will be in the end !
You need to be fair to all of these bands and also when you make improvement you also need to make sure it will also cover in the future as well,So your not making constant changes down the road!
As for people who want to join the initiative program we need people who will join and stay to the end of the program.
We seen people who joined and did not stay with the program and not let us know what was going on that's not right to do to a club you should have common cense to put notice in that you can't help unless emergancy arise etc that's just being polite.
As for the priviate board goes it's for the initiave member only so we can gather documents all together and hash it out then after that when we feel it's good we will post on part 15.
And then you will be able to put your comment in again !
Keep in mind that your comment that you give us will be in the document as well so you guys do play a big roll in the improvement of part 15 !
Do NOT make comment about anyone or the program unless you have actually documented proof that your right.
This is how false information get out and trouble starts. Think what you say before speaking and also Keep in mind Don't do somthing to someone else that you would not do to yourself!
This is all i have to say to you guys.
We need to go for the gusto and improve part 15 !
Station 8
Do note my previous statements only reflect what is currently available on the surface, please by all means prove me and everyone else wrong. We are all here because we love broadcasting and part 15, naturally we would like to see you succeed.
Members of the movement keep asking for us to backup our statements against it, when nobody has given backup to support their statements within the initiative itself. This seems a bit odd to me.
It appears that the primary goal for this initiative is to provide greater useful coverage areas for unlicensed stations subject to U.S. CFR Title 47, Part 15. If successful, this will increase the interference of those unlicensed stations to licensed broadcast stations -- which interference already is believed to be objectionable by many licensed broadcasters.
The authors of this initiative might be interested in the chart below, which shows the interference levels that the FCC now permits between the various classes of licensed AM broadcast stations. The complete document from which this clip was taken is available at http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2015/db1023/FCC-15-142A1.pdf
The table shows that the interfering field at the 100 µV/m daytime groundwave contour of a Class A AM station cannot exceed 5 µV/m. Class B, C and D broadcast stations are protected to their 500 µV/m daytime groundwave contour, at which interfering signals cannot exceed 25 µV/m.
Also included is a plot of field strength vs distance from an AM transmit system compliant with FCC §15.219 as it exists now. It can be seen that they can produce fields of 5 µV/m and 25 µV/m well past 1 mile from the transmit antenna.
The matter of defending/justifying the increased interference resulting from increasing the power and coverage areas of compliant Part 15 stations (AM & FM) will be subject to close inspection by the FCC and licensed broadcasters.
Suggest that this be considered by members of this initiative as they proceed with their plans.
Hi Guys:
The Initiative program is to improve part 15, ! That meane we are trying to make change to the part 15 law ! ( LW, AM, SW, FM )
This includes POWER, ANTENNA LENGTH, GROUND LENGTH, GROUND SYSTEMS,So people can get over electrical and other noise level better ! ( Thats just common cense )
That are some of the reason for part 15 initiatve program !
And if you read and listen correctelly you would of know this, This is not diffucult to understand at all and what we are trying to get done!
Read the documents right mighty 1650, We asked you guys to give us YOUR INPUTS on the pro's and con's to the part 15 improvements and the reason why they will or will not work, in your opinion please !
We as the initiative member already have disscuss about what will work or not, But we want your input on this subject !
You have been given the reason why time again for the improvements, And it also it hits you in the face what initiative is trying to do.
So get your heads out of your butts !
This is NOT diffucult to understand !
Everyone who is here loves broadcasting and cares what happens to it !
So if you care enough lets try to get the improvements done without causing issues !
Station 8
I think everybody knows what the initiative is for...
My intent has never been to cause issue, I apologize if thats what my statements have caused.
I'm taking the back seat with Artisan on this one. I wish you guys the best of luck.
Good morning everyone, I just pulled in with a cup of coffee and am very impressed by the excellent compilation of Initiative postings greeting me here at part15(dot)us. It must have taken some amount of time to so neatly organize all these postings. Very good job of RE-PACKING.
Something to keep in mind is that the new Private Forum is the house guest of the ALPB, which gives the ALPB the power of a virtual CONGRESS over the private forum. The ALPB is the landlord, so to speak. There is an ALPB Meeting coming up soon and no doubt the Private Forum will be high on the agenda.
As I see it everyone who has voiced an interest in the Initiative over time has gained in two ways...
1.) Organized thoughts and words to even better express beliefs and opinions;
2.) Improved skills to work as part of a group with a common interest.
Joining the ALPB is NOT subject to approval, the ALPB welcomes ANYONE who wants to be a member.
Joining the twice monthly Teamspeak meetings puts you at the conference table with the big boys who make major decisions about Part 15 as well as low power broadcasting everywhere in the world.
Join the ALPB by contacting Chairman MRAM Bob through the website.
I should know better than to say 'this is my last comment'. I guess I do care enough to respond to a few of these most recent posts.
We're being asked for comments.
I say, comments about what?
The initiative needs to come out with some definitive statements as to what they are actually proposing. You obviously have some idea of what you want, as there have been many realistic suggestions, many from those who have experience in the broadcast industry, and many from those who have lots experience in legal Part 15 broadcasting, and those have been largely ignored.
Is it AM or FM or SW? What kind of power and/or range are you looking at? What kind of antenna restrictions? Dedicated frequencies? LIcensed or unlicensed? Etc.
That's what I mean by setting objectives. You have to first define what you want to do. It's only then that you can realistically ask for comments.
And by the way, it isn't up those who may comment negatively to prove their statements. It's up to those who want something to prove that it is possible, and demonstrate that the objectors are wrong. If you can't do that, then you don't stand a chance in standing up to the FCC and NAB and any other objectors in the real world.
Believe it or not, this is a friendly audience that wants you to succeed. The absolute worst thing you can do is to get angry with the people here and turn them off, the people from whom you should draw natural support.
And when I, personally, say that the Initiative appears to have no hope, I mean that largely from a process point of view. This is a project, and the fundamentals of Project Management have to be followed or you'll become one of those 95% that fail. Creating a closed Forum is not Project Management - it is a tool that may or may not help you - it seems to be being treated as an end, as opposed to a means to an end (and there are many ways to get there). And as for that closed Forum, right now, the way it is being done and presented, that's definitely not helping you.
The Initiative has been in so-called 'research mode' for over a year. There's no team in place. No division of responsibilities that I can see. No objectives. No plan, including target dates to complete (without which you'll never get done, by the way - you need something to shoot for).
Instead, I see people worrying about technical details, when the technical side, once all the other stuff is there, is by far the easiest to deal with. That, by the way, is a common trap to fall into, and project teams fall into it simply because it is the easiest (like water, work tends to follow the easiest path).
One of the most basic fundamentals of project management is that you make all the hard decisions first - once they're out of the way, you just go for it, and the process from that point on is largely mechanical (with a few caveats thrown into the mix, such as risk management).
My suggestion for the Initiative team is to get your act together, create your objectives and then and only then ask for comments, however that is done (the specifics are largely immaterial, you just want them however they come in).
Yesterday I said that I would bop over the the Super Secret Private Forum and reguest permission to slip the PASSWORD to Artisan Radio and Mighty 1650 Retro Radio, but got delayed and finally just a moment ago posted that request for permission.
Frankly the answer better be yes or I'll quit.
I would gladly help given the opportunity.