Ok folks - this forum was setup as a way to trade information freely amongst part 15 radio people. When we put it up we knew some things were going to happen.
Ok folks - this forum was setup as a way to trade information freely amongst part 15 radio people. When we put it up we knew some things were going to happen.
1) We knew there were going to be heated debates over some things. Fine - all in the name of freedom, we don't moderate heated debates unless they become downright rude and nasty affronts on another person.
2) We knew the FCC folks would come here (duh?). We welcome them openly, and enjoy their presence.
3) We knew they would not (can not) post here. Why? Because; to post anything, even a hello, would be taken as an official stand on some subject. They cannot do this. Don't ask, it's a waste of storage space on the server.
4) We also hoped that the good "smart masses" of the forums would have the common sense to understand that deep deep tech discussions about a rule that was never meant to be "interpreted" or goine into to with a microscope, would suffer because of these deep discussions.
Here's the deal folks: Part 15 is simple. There is no place for interpretation. It's not the bible, it's not even that long of a rule. It's simple. It was meant to BE simple. It was meant so that NON-Engineers could read it. It was designed for people like me, who could go buy a pre-made part15 xmitter and run it. It was meant for bob's toy factory to make remote controlled cars. It was meant for the hobbyist down the road from me to build his own rig that fell loosely inside the rules.
By taking Part15 into the realm of the over-extreme technical discussion, some people with power to do things, have been using *your* discussions to shut down stations. Congratulations. Some of your technical meanderings have now caused Part 15 to come under the microscope again, and may now be changed to include the highly technical specifications that we have, until now, had the freedom to experiment with.
Things that will likely be affected: Base loaded antennas - we've been allowed to use them because the fit within the top down measurement of under 10'. Grounding - we've been allowed to ground our xmitrs to the mast so far - now it looks like the mast may be included in the measurement. Some Type Accepted xmitrs will no longer be accepted - even the ones you just payed a grand for. Some kit guys are going to go out of business. Visits and letter are coming to a part 15 station near you.
This is all doom and gloom. This is very real. And unless we stop poking holes in what all the experimenters are trying out, and we turn a little more supportive and quit trying to be techno-Gods and flexing our mathematical muscle, the feds are gonna shut us down.
Most of you are pretty smart. Most of you know math inside out. Try a little common sense. Try being nice to each other. Try some support. If you think there is a tech reason something wont work, thats one thing, but pointing out that part 15 says this and that, at such a minute level is crazy. It's an overview rule that is subject to the FCC agents point of view - not a highly technical LAW.
I have had discussions with FCC guys. Most of them are very cool, and doing their 9 to 5. I think I'm going to trust what they say they are looking at more than what some faceless guy on a message board says. And it comes down to this: RESPONSIBILITY. Follow the Part15 as close as you can. If you are using type accepted stuff, you should be dead on by following the manufacturers suggestions. If you homebrew, then try to stay as close as you can - if you have questions CALL THE FCC - we pay THEM for service. If you are kitting, make sure to follow the rules of the homebrew - just don't build more than 5 😉
Have fun, and don't make this into a bigger deal than it is. The trolls are here in bigger force than the FCC has on it's payroll. Some trolls may seem smart, but they are still trolls.
🙂
Tried to tell people long ago when part15.us was in it's first incarnation that this would happen. Same thing with BMI. Guess what, now stations are getting shut down and/or harrassed by BMI.
Congradulations folks. I'm in total agreement with MLR.
Thank You,
Rev. Robert P. Chrysafis
Universal Life Ministries
http://www.ulc.org
Moderator Hunterdonfree
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hunterdonfree
Since it was brought up - this is a prime example of people pushing for something, getting it, then bitching about it.
BMI, SESAC, ASCAP, and the others never gave a rats butt about Part 15 radio. Someone decided to push the issue. They kept emailing BMI "How do I get a license to bcast on my part 15?" - the response was usually something like "We don't." Which should have been enough. But these folks decided that "Oh.. no.. we NEED to be licensed." - What BMI et al were telling you, folks, was "We don't care. Theres no money for us there. Do whatever. Don't tell us about it. Just go.."
Then what happened? I think we all know. We have to pay BMI now (thanks for that, by the way, I would have rather budgeted a new bit of hardware than pay these fees).
So.. since we know our little voices CAN be heard, how about instead of asking the FCC to be more specific about our rules, which are very simple and plain now, we use our little voices and have very real, very serious changes made. Changes like - oh, i dont know, a new computer center for our schools? getting a new allotment for LPAM? maybe getting up off your nit picky hineys and helping build a HFH home? You know how many houses for the poor we could build as a working unit? Part 15 is a hobby. Go help feed the poor if you want something to do with your time. Quick picking at our rules.
Many of you are living on disability, many of you are living on 6 figure incomes, many of you are the average old, every day middle income folks: We all love our radio. Quit trying to destroy it. Its like Lord of the Flies here... next thing, someone will be rolling boulder on some fat kid for not grounding his mast to spec.
Part15 for Humanity 🙂
mlr wrote "By taking Part15 into the realm of the over-extreme technical discussion, some people with power to do things, have been using *your* discussions to shut down stations. Congratulations. Some of your technical meanderings have now caused Part 15 to come under the microscope again, and may now be changed to include the highly technical specifications that we have, until now, had the freedom to experiment with.
Things that will likely be affected: Base loaded antennas - we've been allowed to use them because the fit within the top down measurement of under 10'. Grounding - we've been allowed to ground our xmitrs to the mast so far - now it looks like the mast may be included in the measurement. Some Type Accepted xmitrs will no longer be accepted - even the ones you just payed a grand for. Some kit guys are going to go out of business. Visits and letter are coming to a part 15 station near you."
_________
We can be certain that the FCC has known even prior to issuing the rules for Part 15 that the entire conducting path from a Part 15 AM tx chassis until that path enters the earth will radiate, and add to the permissible 3-m length of the radiator. Of course that also pre-dates any post about that on this board and elsewhere.
It is understandable how that point of physics is an inconvenient reality to some Part 15 operators, because it limits the performance of their systems.
Part 15 rules may appear simple, but that doesn't mean that the underlying science is simple, or that simplistic beliefs about Part 15 are appropriate. The true functioning of a Part 15 system takes some effort, objectivity and education to understand.
Instead of suppressing such information, one might take a position that making it more accessible would be an important function of these boards -- especially if it helps someone avoid "FCC problems."
Rich
I've been reading most of the FCC enforcement NOUO's for 2007 - past 10 years and for all that I've read no one was ever visted for running a Part15 AM transmitter except for those on the FM band with excessive power, but not one single FCC enforcement for anyone using 100mw on AM, until quite recently since the big discussions over 'length of ground leads', etc.
All you have to do is vist the other 'radio board' to see the lengthy discussion regarding the use of ground leads, radiation, etc., it's all nonsense since 100mw is almost 'toy power levels' and if it were not for the excellent transmitter designs pushing that 100mw it's nothing more than a 'Mr. Microphone' or your 'baby monitor'.
So my suggestion is for everyone to 'cool it' and let Part15 be what it is. Stop trying to read into what the FCC has given us and like I said earlier, after setting up your Part15 station, before you begin transmitting call the local FCC office and either schedule an agent to visit your site and have him give you his input and insight (who better?) or send the FCC by mail your intent with your station design, transmitter specs, etc. and have them record it in their files, should they hear problems or complaints they have first hand knowledge WHO is transmitting and what power levels etc.
I have done this and the Atlanta FCC agents came to my site TWICE and I've NEVER had any trouble. In fact they have offered to help and suggest I should apply for an LPFM license. Go figure, your tax dollars at work, but remember THEY are the ones you have to report to and NOT to Rich Fry, Keith Hamilton of Rangemaster, Phil Bolyn of SSTRAN, etc. should you encounter problems with the FCC.
Radiopilot
Rich,
The moderator of this board made a very important post that effects the future of Part 15 broadcasting and Part 15 information stations. He asked that we not discuss the topic that has caused the FCC to change their enforcement of Part 15 AM rules. You jumped on this with a post that defied mlr's request.
You are on a one man crusade to see that the FCC enforces it's rules in such a way that will kill Part 15 broadcasting. You are causing trouble for all the people here who are pushing for Part 15 as a viable way to provide alternatives to the canned, non-community-oriented nature of commercial broadcasting. You are also causing trouble for other valid uses of Part 15 AM, such as "talking signs" and information radio.
I suggest you take your crusade elsewhere.
PhilB
PhilB wrote: You are on a one man crusade to see that the FCC enforces it's rules in such a way that will kill Part 15 broadcasting.
___________
No, sir. All I have done is to post technically accurate information about the way Part 15 systems really work -- none of which was unknown to the FCC since long before I (and others) starting posting it.
Would this information not be valuable to those using Part 15 systems, so that they could make the best decision about how they wish to operate them, and at what possible risk?
//
Obviouly you have completely missed the point; allow me to simplify it: Part 15 was, indeed, designed for people with a PhD in Physics. I know, all those years taking courses, the year spent writing your final thesis, wasted, because you can not apply it to part 15.
It was, I swear to Bob, designed for the average Joe to look at and think "Oh cool, I can do that." - room for error (gasp) exists. The FCC guys are gonna gonna go running out and having people thrown in jail for being a little over, or for grounding something wrong.
These enforcements are for something way more sinister.
I'm going to weigh in with my comments and Rick can decide whether they stay or go.
My perception of the people on this board is that they are current or former broadcasters, electrical engineers, professional engineers, computer professionals, recording engineers, and generally estute and inquisitive people. In short, people here are smart! They can read. People here can understand what the Part-15 rules say. To put it bluntly, it ain't all that hard.
The people here are the broadcast version of QRP hams. They are those people who run very low power and experiment with various configurations to see what works the best. True, QRP hams don't have one arm tied behind their back by having antenna limitations. But, that's part of the challenge that we are given with Part-15. So, we experiment to see what works the best within the boundaries we are given. And we're not the only Part-15 experimenters. But we have chosen to give back something to those who care to listen in exchange for our experimentation and learning. People here are not out to break the rules. If you want to break the rules on AM, you're certainly not going to let 100 mw and a 10 foot antenna stand in your way. (OK, I know 3 meters isn't exactly 10 feet, but you get my drift.) You'll buy a 5 watt AM transmitter and string up a long wire. You won't sweat over whether your antenna is 117" and your ground lead is 2 1/8".
If a person choses to create and impose limitations for himself, that's well within his rights to do so. But, I can read too. And I understand what the rules say. I can also experiment as stated above to see what works and what does not. If I just accept that "this is physics" and nothing will change, then I have learned nothing. Every discovery that we know today was because someone pushed physics and discovered something new. If someone had not pushed physics, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all, because there would be no radio. After all, physics said you could only send electricity through copper wires.
I don't normally run on like this, but I felt I had to say what has been on my mind. I do get it, I do understand and I know what's technically accurate. And I respect all of the people here who provide information. I don't need just one source (other than the FCC) to make an informed decision about how put an RF signal out "into the ether."
Whew!
Frank
www.easthillradio.com
You are right on Mlr, The FCC knew exactly what they were doing when they wrote part 15, it was a simple, easy to follow rule in these days of over complexity. Like Rich said, I’m sure the FCC was aware of the entire transmitting system when they wrote Part 15, and that the ground currents wouldn’t magically stop at some point, and took that into account at the time.
It is really simple, antenna, ground “lead” (or wire) power limit, that’s easy!
It only gets complicated if you let it!
What a well written rule.