Oh.. I just noticed Artisian has already said what I just said!
RichPowers Said in post #30:
I understand where your coming from Bruce, but having a desire to be on the air wouldn't neccessarily be the reason they would do it. More likely, they would just want to put a playlist on of the music they want hear, much the same as people in a bar will constantly be returning to the jukebox pumping dollar after dollar in to hear what they want to hear.
No, most every tom dick harry jane have no interest whatsoever of going through setting up a transmitter now, it's too time consuming and difficult to get it set up just right under current regulations, not to mention expense involved in the higher end equipment need to squeeze out every little ounce of range possible to reach out usually less than a half mile away... why bother, it seems silly and pointless to most people, so instead they just play their cd, or mp3 or whatever.But if the rules were relaxed allowing a few watts of legal unlicenced power, then it's very likely a totally different situation would arise, because that would make the setup quick and simple.. buy a cheap transmitter, plug in an mp3 player or pc, and bang!, in 5 minutes you got your own playlist airing for miles around.
And post #31
Oh.. I just noticed Artisian has already said what I just said!
MrBruce Said:
What you said contributes to the topic and counts as your personal opinion, regardless of what Artisian said and I welcome and appreciate the time you took to post it.
You gave me more information to work with, if I am going to help lobby for a special frequency and or a higher RF power output for part 15 FM, I need as much input as possible, because perhaps I am really truly wrong about my whole idea working out at all.
I need to know the pros and cons viewed by others who really know what is going on out there in the world. I am not looking to catch the impossible dream, I just want to know if the rules are a bit out dated and if the current maximum part 15 FM range is still critically needed or if in todays world of man made noise, part 15 FM could be allowed a bit more legal power output, or a larger antenna, or a frequency different from those used by licensed full powered stations?
Trust me, when I say, preventing interference to licensed stations, either FM broadcast or television broadcast is my #1 concern.
In Walmart, they can continue selling devices that are intended to carry an ipod's audio into an FM radio receiver, but devices for 1 watt FM would be sold by companies that specialize in those devices.
For example, does Walmart curently sell LPFM transmitters? Does Walmart or Best Buy sell full powered transmitters? If you want broadcast euipment, you have to do business with companies that sell that type of equipment.
From what I have seen, Ramsey sold devices, Walmart never carried, such as the FM100 or the FM100B. Plus the other kits Ramsey sold for AM and FM that were a lower quality kit never sold at Walmart and they should not in the future either. They should be sold by companies that specialize in part 15 radio devices and most importantly, be built around very strict filtering at the final output stage to prevent spurs and adjacent channel splatter.
If it was me and I do take my hobby seriously, I'd pay the EXTRA $100 for a clean transmitter, even $150.00 EXTRA if I have to. Don't forget, a clean transmitter produces a clean sounding carrier for your peace of mind, who wants to broadcast crap audio? I sure don't!
As long as those transmitters are not sold in big box stores, there may not be any notice to the general public they even exist at all.
Now, why does MrBruce think our version of part 15 FM or AM should be allowed more RF power output and better antenna designs? Because in days gone by, when the part 15 rules were written, there was a different purpose for part 15 devices and the airwaves were not as congested as they are now.
Times have changed and so has the need for a change in the FCC part 15 rules and regulations.
All input, pro or con is most welcomed.
Bruce.
Mr. Bruce said: "But if the rules were relaxedallowing a few watts of legal unlicenced power,..."
I said: Why should Part 15 hobby types get a few watts of legal unlicensed power when amateur radio operators don't enjoy that priviledge? Any power level requires a license. Though easier than it used to be, amateurs here and in other countries must demonstrate some technical competence even if it is from a study guide before being turned loose on the airwaves.
wdcx Said:
Why should Part 15 hobby types get a few watts of legal unlicensed power when amateur radio operators don't enjoy that priviledge? Any power level requires a license. Though easier than it used to be, amateurs here and in other countries must demonstrate some technical competence even if it is from a study guide before being turned loose on the airwaves.
MrBruce Said:
Thanks for your input wdcx.
Personally, I am not interested in voice communications, otherwise I'd be still active in CB radio. I can not play music over a CB radio without getting a visit from the FCC.
Amateur radio has various RF power outputs that can legaly be used across the various amateur bands, some allow over 100 watts PEP or more.
The licensing issue is not a problem with me, after all, at one time your CB station had to have a license issued by the FCC.
At first, a fee was charged and an application had to filled out, then they dropped the fee, but still required the application.
To tell the truth, I am not opposed to having to fill out some sort of application and submit it to the FCC. Didn't people have to do that with those GMRS walkie talkies?
I licensed my CB station, I am also willing to license my part 15 station if it is a requirement of operation. Where CB was meant as a communications device, ELPFM could be viewed as an entertainment device, allowing music as well as voice.
Getting back to AM part 15, because I want change for that as well, the rules should be reviewed with today's current state of the frequency spectrum and man made noise. We all know, the rules for part 15 AM were written when man made noise was not as bad as it is today.
Times change, the man made noise levels change as more and more of the population purchase and use houehold electronics that fail to prevent noise across the spectrum.
Each year, the noise levels increase, but the devices that require wireless communications suffers, because the legal output levels are not increased to compensate for the increased noise levels.
Filtering is the major ingredient needed to make all of this all work. The licensed broadcaster's biggest fears are increased interference issues. If it was my licensed station, I'd be upset as well. I do not dispute their claim. What I want is transmitters for part 15 use that are built with well filtered output circuits. If those were flooding the market and actually worked, the tests conducted proved those devices emitted zero harmonics and zero interference, that would be one less concern the licensed broadcasters would have on their table.
Loss of revenue on the broadcaster's part, is of course, another issue we'd have to address in our claims that part 15 can happen without damage to a licensed broadcaster, that I am sure of. So, I am open to all suggestions and input regarding that issue.
I do not think anyone is asking for a few watts, at least I am not, I mention 1 watt, because that is the maximum RF power output that has been tried.
In Ham radio, does the FCC rules or your Ham ticket class allow you to broadcast continous music on any of the amatuer bands?
Bruce.
Mr. Bruce said: "To tell the truth, I am not opposed to having to fill out some sort of application and submit it to the FCC."
I said: I would like to see some demonstration of technical competency to the FCC. You can see by some of the comments on this and other sites there are those thristing for knowledge.
Mr Bruce also asked about music on the amateur bands.
I said: Prohibited by FCC Rules. Also, a FCC license is required for any power level on the ham bands including 1/10 of a watt.
Mark said
If someone is breaking the rule and using a 5 watt transmitter how do they detect this and enforce the 1 watt rule?.....JohnyC?
You very rearly hear of someone getting busted for being over power. The last one about 3 years ago was someone that was way over powered with a faulty transmitter and was interfering with the police band. The biggest problem in the large citys is people over deviating too far from the freq they are on. All caused by over modulation. Normaly we are left to sort our own problems out.
Johny C Said:
You very rearly hear of someone getting busted for being over power. The last one about 3 years ago was someone that was way over powered with a faulty transmitter and was interfering with the police band. The biggest problem in the large citys is people over deviating too far from the freq they are on. All caused by over modulation. Normaly we are left to sort our own problems out.
MrBruce Said:
Yup only in the good ole' USA are things totally done the wrong way.
We'll never learn though. Perhaps we should change our logo to "America, the home of the GREEDY"
Bruce.
Don't interfere with licenced stations or other things in their band and you're OK on yours. This model seems to work in New Zealand and maybe the FCC should look into how it's working there. Everything isn't falling apart.
Mark
MrBruce posted: Yup only in the good ole' USA are things totally done the wrong way.
Could MrBruce or anyone else please elaborate as to why others should accept the accuracy of the clip of MrBruce, above?
Many thanks for whatever anyone might add to support/prove that point of view.
Rich Said:
Could MrBruce or anyone else please elaborate as to why others should accept the accuracy of the clip of MrBruce, above?
Many thanks for whatever anyone might add to support/prove that point of view.
MrBruce Said:
In post #38
I was refering back to one of Johny C's earlier posts, Johny C said their equipment does not operate on the same range of frequecies as the licensed stations. Therefore, they and the licensed stations do not clash with each other, thus causing interference to licensed broadcasters. That is what I meant by the wrong way. I realize I forgot to quote his former post along with the snippit I used in that post, which would have made better sense. It's too late to add that part now, as the edit time has already expired. But there should have been two prior quotes not one. Sorry for the confusion it caused Rich.
Mark Said in post #39
Don't interfere with licenced stations or other things in their band and you're OK on yours. This model seems to work in New Zealand and maybe the FCC should look into how it's working there. Everything isn't falling apart.
Mrbruce Said:
You are correct, that type of set up could work here as well, someone has to take the time to conduct the research and present the facts as to whether that it can work here as well.
Bruce.
I've been talking to Station8 about all this negativity towards the FM Initiative and the call for 87.7 and 87.9 Mhz as a part of our call for a Hobby Radio frequency group within the FM band and leaving the other channels for Licensed Radio stations. He simply put it to me this way and tha is “You won't know if you don't ask.” If we can put these reasons in a professional way who knows. We have studied other countries where it has worked and actually curbed the need or want for Pirate Radio as the transmitters covered a few miles and most Hobby broadcasters were delighted in those countries to the point that they didn't even dwell on the idea to crank the power up. Johnny C uses a nice clear transmitter in his country and has no issues with it and he seems satisfied with the power he is allowed. But there is a proper way to ask for this without looking like a power hungry maniac who wants to take over the airwaves. At least it gives the hobbyist a learning experience, gives a station the opportunity to promote local, unsigned or forgotten artists that the other stations can't carry. Maybe allow for a small community involvement as well. As far as two low power stations wanting to carry their programming in the same close proximity there could be a central transmitter and a sharing of that frequency so both operators could carry their programming. Or somehow spread them apart or have one on AM and the other on FM. All this doom and gloom is not going to help an Initiative like I was trying to start since June 5th 2015. I'm even disappointed at the few folks in the Pirate Radio sites I tried to get involved into this Initiative as a alternative to Pirate Broadcasting. I'm not saying I didn't get a few, but I was disappointed that I didn't get 100's for people. Ever if I could get 20 out of 100 Pirates, but I didn't even get that and that to me is not something I understand. Why the doom and gloom before you even try and ask?
I'm not sure there's a whole lot of negativity out there. I, for one, am just getting tired of all this talk (with little action) about what could/should happen.
The reason you're not seeing much support (which isn't the same as negativity, just like critical comments that are only looking at reality) is that asking is a lot of work. It will require a petition, with a lot of background and technical information. Other than basically saying that this is a good thing (debatable, particularly to the FCC and existing licensed broadcasters) and that some, including yourself, want it, I've seen very little of that other work done. If it isn't done, then there's not even any point in asking, as you'll just be ignored.
Bruce said: Each year, the noise levels increase, but the devices that require wireless communications suffers, because the legal output levels are not increased to compensate for the increased noise levels.
That's very true, however, would not permiting an increase of output levels in of part 15 result in an increase of the noise levels we'd like to overcome? After all, us part 15 broadcasters are but a minute fraction of the uses pertaining to the part 15 world.. Everything is part 15.. everywhere.
But I'm not going to discuss it anymore, I've grown tired of it too. But before I bow out of this discussion I'll part with basically what I said earlier.. I think it's an unfeasable quest to seek permissions of any substantial increase of power for part 15 broadcasters.. But if it did ever happen, it would cause a can of worms to get opened, resulting in our hobbys to become much to expensive to afford.. much like what is presently happening with online streaming.
Quite frankly, we could be next in line to the same fate. It might be best to leave well enough alone, so we can at least keep enjoying what we have now.
Stay on your bicycle, there's no way they'll ever let you legally drive a car without a license.
If you want real range, then get a license.
Just one more thing.. If you really want to persue something, maybe it would be better that instead of getting the part 15 limitations lifted, to focus on the creation an entirely brand new micro-powered broadcasting license outside of part 15.. Something well below low power, yet well above part 15. A much simpler and cheaper to apply for and acheive.
Just a thought
Everything is part 15.. everywhere.
Said by Rich Powers earlier today--
YA!