RFB makes the point that greater privilege for part 15 operation would at some point expand into a more professionally regulated zone, and this is true at some point of expansion, but perhaps there would be room for small extensions of what can be done without a license.
kc8gpd did not suggest raising AM input power, only extending the allowed antenna length. I have tried a 20-foot antenna and it was not perceptibly different than a 10-foot. And for most of us, anything above 15-feet (vertical)would be hard to manage, therefore I suggest that being allowed 15-20-feet would be a very slight improvement.
FM deserves slightly better than our present very puny allowance. Probably matching Canada would be sensible, as it would make manufacture standard in north america.
Allowing 520kHz for C-C would be a very small slice of space, and most radios don't receive 520, although some do. The advantage is, of course, the low frequency.
More power on long wave and shortwave would recognize the fact that these are unused or very little used bands in the U.S.
Even AM, for that matter, is considered to be increasingly blighted as we enter the future, so giving it to squatters perhaps makes sense.
Most of the proposals presented here are talking about raising power levels. I would be the last to protest against it.
But, more power means more responsibility in preventing the "more" potential for interference...there's that confusing word again! 😉
I refrain from the use of "harmful" because that is SOOOOO over rated and SOOOOO over abused its not funny. Causing interference, be it a poke or incredibly harmful, is not what we are after, nor are we expecting to cause if we follow the professional approach to the good engineering, be it 1 watt or 10 or 100.
Leave Part 15 where Part 15 is, I say create a new part, or at least an extension of either 15 for licensed low power of 10 watts and above, or extension parts to the current 73.
Either way, if we expect to be trusted with increased power levels and longer antennas, then we must accept the increased responsibility to maintain that high level technical standards as do the larger classes. It is unavoidable and will most likely be the commission's first line of concern...do we license a bunch of squatters or license a bunch of responsible radio enthusiasts who demonstrate high technical standards and morals and open up a new class of low power AM/FM/SW/LW services.
I say it again...time for Part 15 to mature.
Imagine the commission's prospective if we march in there and begin demanding for changes and increased power and longer antennas when right here in this very forum on another thread, we have confusion over the very thing the FCC wants to avoid...interference..(a) and (b)...and (b) really has NOTING to do with transmitters anyway!!!
BAM!
RFB
RFB has made the concluding statement, and I for one am on board with his argument in favor of the status quo; keeping things the way they are.
I doubt that anyone is so disappointed with the way part 15 is structured that he intends to go on strike. I think we will go on with the rules we have and, in a month or two, again wish for expansions.
Those who quit part 15 usually come back eventually and tell us that they missed doing it.
So in closing, I say thank you to kc9gpd for starting this great review of part 15, and RFB for the logical case for part 15 as is.
Tonight I'll double check the milliWatts and measure the 3-meter, just to be faithful.
I vote for Part 15 Plus...The Next Generation.
RFB
I'm going to play "devil's advocate" here: the FCC--like many agencies over the last few decades--has become more of an industry advocacy group than a true regulatory body. In my never humble opinion, to petition the Commission to loosen the Part 15 reigns--unless done completely "professionally" (with engineering studies, graphs, charts)--is to invite tighter controls and more restrictive operating parameters. We are, after all, "mere hobbyists" with no stockholders to support, and no lobbyists. Yeah, yeah, that shouldn't matter, but the bedrock concepts of "public interest, convenience, and necessity" have been replaced by "he who has the gold, rules".
It would be hard for me to say "don't do this," but if you were to proceed, I would consider petitioning under Part 73 in support of a true LPAM service, rather than an expansion of Part 15. Again, you'd have to have engineering studies, etc., and again, the NAB (and maybe still NPR) would likely gather up its legislative (read: monetary) forces, but such an effort might gain traction. Yes, I'm pretty sure others have gone down this road (so far unsuccessfully), but it wouldn't hurt that which we already have, no matter how miniscule.
This post might sound harsh..but it must due to the point and level of severity of the issue.
Well there is an old saying...want to play in the mud, be prepared to get your shoes filthy.
"We are, after all, "mere hobbyists" with no stockholders to support, and no lobbyists."
I do not declare myself as a mere hobbyist..at least when it comes to my station and the grade of equipment it uses, along with applying industry standards to it, its operations and engineering practices.
The pen is mightier than the sword. To move the pen across the dotted line, it will take NUMBERS, LOTS OF NUMBERS..meaning lots of people behind the change.
There is another old saying...when there is one...100 more are behind the one.
Meaning that there are members here who are career broadcast engineers, electronic technicians and engineers, and here is one that really CAN help boost the efforts...licensed ham operators who MUST have some kind of engineering skills and radio theory under their belt before they can even get an entry level novice ticket.
You know sometimes I get quite frustrated at some of the responses about topics such as this one. I mean every time there is either this cloaked fear from the ones discussing the issue, or there is a comment made attempting to define everyone's level by putting all the eggs into one basket.
Radio is radio, be it ham, two way, broadcast, beacon or whatever. All of it takes professional skills and treated as such no matter what the band is or what the modulation is or what the purpose is.
Radiobob does make a few valid points. The fight for change, in anything in fact, is NEVER an easy pothole-less road to travel. And yes it will take large numbers versus lobbyists and special interest to invoke that change.
Well you know what...I'm tired of the same ol same ol status quo he who has the gold forces the rule. Some may like to continue living like that and just be told what to do when to do it and how to do it..all live in a standardized grey dull bloated boring straight jacket no fun no frills no color no personality regime.
All of those things is the very reason why things are the way they are. People go run and hide and tuck their head under the pillow hoping big brother will take care of it all, yet big brother is the one screwing everything up for the common folk and it all is controlled by those big lobbyists and special interests...such as the NAB etc.
And as I have said it before...to expect to be given the keys to the car and allowed to drive on the public radio roadways, this "hobby" or "tinker" line of thinking MUST grow up and change into the adult world. Again as I have pointed out, it will require the high level engineering practices..on a professional level to present the proposals...NOT from the level of "hobbyist" and "tinkerer".
So basically in a nutshell....we have to change our thinking process and get out of the infancy...or put more bluntly and simply...time to stop using the baby bottle and drink from the big cup. Time to wear pants and throw away the diapers.
Either this is done the right way, or put away all this nonsense of "gimme more gimme more" sounding like a bunch of out of control kids in a toy store and forget about any sort of changes to the current rules or new class of radio service opened up.
It is the adult world...I restate what I said above....if we want to play in the mud...our shoes are going to get filthy. If the mud is too filthy for the tastes, sit down and please make room for another who is really serious about this subject.
RFB
RFB reminds me of several things in his reasonable and mature viewpoint.
Radiobob alluded also to similar thoughts.....
We are "labeled" by a gentrified gold-holding upper class.
Official forms require we voluntarily self-label ourselves by answering "employed" or "retired." Of course, "employed" automatically labels us as "working for a boss" and "being compensated," with all of the taxation that follows. We cannot resort to privacy and declare "None of your business."
If you are not being paid to do what you do, you are "retired" or a "hobbyist." I am always marking "retired," even though I was never "tired" in the first place, so how could I be "RE-tired?"
Why is it that "hobbyist" sounds like "childish pastime." Is there a label upgrade possible, such as "professional hobbyist?"
I watched a feminist lecture on Youtube in which the close-cropped woman declared that men are disposable. She said, "Men do" whereas "Women are." She said, "Women and children first, even if the men must sacrifice themselves."
That was not a non-sequitur (switch of subjects) on my part, merely a case of a feminist claiming some gentry territory in deciding who is expendable. She might be somebodies boss or an official bureaucrat.
The famous inventor, architect, philosopher R. Buckminster Fuller said that when he filled in the line "Occupation," he always wrote "Comprehensivist" since he did a little bit of everything.
As RFB, myself, and others, start deciding for ourselves what we are, label making belongs to us, not to lord masters who assign labels for the "lower class."
The self-educated author and thinker Eric Hoffer said, "There are natural aristocrats, who are born with special talents and minds, not related to the ruling classes, but often superior to them."
In a hierarchy of who is expendable I believe we should save our creative thinkers above all, the gentry should sacrifice themselves to make room in the boat.
Was it radiobob who said the fcc is at the service of the monied corporate interests...... well yes, no time for mere hobbyists and more glaringly no time to consider the actual public interest which radio should be in the business of serving. The common riff raff.
The booklength version of this story will continue from one of our other good writers.
This is NRRR ........ National Riff Raff Radio.
Seems there are always new Part 15 products showing up on the marketplace as there is a veritalbe plethora of applications for Part 15.
The "industry" people don't seem to have much trouble gaining approval for these or other new RF applications.
Perhaps the "industry" people should lead the way on this push for LPAM. They are the ones that stand to benefit by developing another product for market. Once they realize that, it's full speed ahead.
All they need is to apply their marketing skills and lobbying efforts showing how this is needed for any number of reasons; localization, ethnic needs, Homeland Security, etc.
Do we know any of the "industry" people that produce product for this market? RangeMaster, ProCaster, ISS, Ramsey just to name a few may have the clout to push for a license class needed for their new LPAM product.
Of course, the new licenses would most likely be scarce and expensive to pursue. Anyone tried for an LPFM?
"Perhaps the "industry" people should lead the way on this push for LPAM."
The only problem with that is the "industry" that markets to Part 15 devices are not looking at Part 15 "broadcasting" as their bottom line contributor. Their bottom line are things like cordless phones, wi-fi routers, cell phones, garage door openers, baby monitors and the like.
It is only a tiny fraction of this Part 15 device market that focuses on broadcasting. I seriously doubt even Ramsey, or any other low power transmitter manufacturer intended to do more than monitor for baby's burp, can come close to the revenues generated by the non-broadcast oriented Part 15 devices.
In order to get the "industry" behind a push for a LPAM class radio service, there would have to be a heck of a lot more bottom line projection before they even put the idea of getting behind such a thing on a back burner.
No doubt even if there was suddenly a miracle of cosmic dust in the air and a new class for LPAM were opened up, the equipment, at least the transmitter and antenna systems, won't be in the form of "kits".
The equipment will have to follow the same path as the Part 73 gear does, be certified to operate at the new class levels etc.
Y'all sure you still want an LPAM class licensed operation?
Start saving them pennies cuz everything on the table now that is out there for license free broadcasting WILL NOT qualify for LPAM licensed class services I can guarantee it.
Get ready to throw down A LOT more than even the most expensive Part 15 ready to go system there is currently on the market.
Are you prepared?
Like I was saying...this LPAM licensed class will require an approach far beyond the hobby and tinker time realm.
As to the question of going through the waste of time over an LPFM license, it is no different from the riff raff you go through for a regular class FM license. Auctions, petitions, denials, no refunds on app fees or engineering fees if your denied even a CP.
And about just as expensive lobbying special interest to even get on the bidder's list.
RFB
RF - There's no application fee for LPFM, nor are there auctions, and the engineering info required to be filed is MUCH less. So LPFM is not quite the hassle a regular class FM is. If LPAM ever becomes available for folks like us, (which I doubt will ever happen..) I see us getting similiar breaks in those areas.
Well considering the scale between the regular class and LPFM plus the ridiculous restrictions, it might as well be as much of a hassle.
If LPAM never comes to see the light of airwaves, (which I think is stupid considering lack of jobs..) I think the current limits should be relaxed considerably.
IF LPAM does see the light of airwaves, then it, and LPFM, should not be constrained to live through strain just to stay on the air because they can't sell advertising airtime.
If there is any real reason why LPAM and the current LPFM cannot sell advertising airtime is because the monopoly is afraid of competition.
Wonder how many of those LPAM channels will get bought up, locked up by those special interest groups that gobbled up the LPFM channels.
RFB
I never cease to be amazed that the same industry folks who battled LPFM on the basis that a 10 watt station three channels over might cause horrible interference seem awfuly quiet with the explosion of translators. "Unavailable" adjacent frequencies suddenly sport translators and frankly does Edgewater Broadcasting really need that many outlets? I'll be interested to see if anything comes of this past summer's proposed lifting of LPFM restrictions, particularly at the expense of the megachurch's translator empire. Hey, give me the days of limited station ownership!
Radiobob has triggered a memory with his comment about translators and LPFM, both of which use small transmitter powers.
Back in 1960, when I was starting in FM as an employee, the station I worked for had 21,500 Watts and was the most powerful FM on the dial. There were only two FMs in town, and they had 12,500 Watts and 6,700 Watts, respectively. All three stations came in clearly on my Zenith table radio.But the station I worked for was already planning to increase power to 100,000 Watts.
I asked our engineer why so much power was needed, and his explanation
was this: He told me the radio manufacturers as a group had lobbied for the high power ceiling on transmission so that radio sets could be inexpensively manufactured with fewer and cheaper parts.
That being the case, jump forward to today, and imagine this scenario. The manufacture of high quality radio receivers no longer being an obstacle, the FCC should therefore lower the maximum power ceiling for FM stations. The advantages would be several... there would be plenty more room for additional stations and the diversity that would follow, and the energy savings for the "green movement" would be substantial.
"a 10 watt station three channels over might cause horrible interference seem awfuly quiet with the explosion of translators. "Unavailable" adjacent frequencies suddenly sport translators and frankly does Edgewater Broadcasting really need that many outlets?"
No..they don't. And neither does any other church organization. When you tune across the N.C. portion of the band, and hear 10 signals all carrying the same programs from the same source located in some dark corner of the desert spreading gossip....er gospel across the entire country occupying every LPFM and translator channel that can possibly exist...well who then would need a slide rule to determine if the playing field is rigged or not!
As to the babies crying wolf about a 10 watt interfering with a station 3 channels over, well of course the gobblers are gonna throw a tantrum and tell more gospel..er gossip to protect their high and mighty interests....which IMO has nothing to do with spiritual uplifting....more like monopoly worship, and the engineering simply proves them wrong...but who pays attention to the engineering when $$$$ from drugs or collection pails flows upon request.
There was even someone here who spouted about their worship organization working on hording...er collecting LPFM and translator licenses. How nice of them to be so kind as to creatively sugar coat and hide their intent right in front of everyone...and I was the only one who called it out.
Indeed...give unto Cesar what is Cesar's...take whats left and to heck with the rest.
You can bet these devil in disguise fakes are gonna do the same thing to LPAM and even lobby for it so they have the first bids on the channels.
RFB
"the FCC should therefore lower the maximum power ceiling for FM stations. The advantages would be several... there would be plenty more room for additional stations and the diversity that would follow, and the energy savings for the "green movement" would be substantial."
Not only is this a fantasy dream, but a lost cause even before it would begin simply because the FCC has authorized these already high power FM stations even more room for power with HD. Those stations are not going to give up what was given to them. They will fight it to the death and it's usually their opponents who get carried out of the ring on a stretcher.
Put simply..the playing field has been so rigged and tilted to the elite's advantage, the first thing to change is the playing field rules. Any new class service opened up, be it on AM or FM or SW or LW or anywhere else, these already entrenched organizations will lobby to have first rights and come up with every lame arsed excuse to side with them and dismiss everything else.
Isn't that how the game has been morphed into over the last 30 years?!
Don't play any game in which the game always ensures the victory to the other side.
RFB