• Skip to primary navigation
  • Skip to main content
  • Skip to primary sidebar
Part15

Part15

License Free, legal, low-power radio broadcasting

  • About Us
  • Forums
  • Resources
  • Members
  • Contact Us
  • Log In
Forums
Main Category
temp
FM Carrier Current?
 
Notifications
Clear all

FM Carrier Current?

 
temp
Last Post by Anonymous 13 years ago
5 Posts
2 Users
0 Reactions
512 Views
RSS
 radio8z
(@radio8z)
Posts: 248
Honorable Member Registered
Topic starter
 

The topic of FM carrier current is being discussed in another thread where the legal considerations are presented but there are technical factors also, so in order not to pull that thread off topic, this thread addresses only the technical part of the subject.

Many years ago I was given a device which connected to the antenna terminals on the TV and plugged into the AC main. This was promoted as a device which "turns your entire house wiring into a giant TV antenna." It worked no better than rabbit ears by my experience and by that of others as reported in magazine reviews. One critical comment I remember reading said essentially "Everyone knows that TV antennas are not the size of a house so what's the advantage?" This made sense when the wavelengths of TV signals were considered though the low channels had fairly long wavelengths.

I opened the device and inside was a single capacitor which connected one side of the twin lead to one side of the power line (unpolarized plug) with nothing else...no balun, resistor,...nothing. I gave it no more thought until now.

Does using the power line to distribute a FM signal make sense? Just as a thought experiment the answer is "maybe yes, maybe no." If the signal is coupled differentially to two conductors of the power outlet then these act as a transmission line so it is likely that the signal will propagate along the power conductors.

Transmission lines are characterized by three parameters: the inductance per unit length, the capacitance per unit length, and the attenuation per unit length (Nepers per meter...one of my favorite units of measurement). The inductance per unit length and the capacitance per unit length determine the characteristic impedance. Assuming that this impedance can be matched via balun or other well known technique this can be disregarded as a limiting factor other than to say that junctions will cause reflections throughout the power system which can severely disrupt the signal and the match.

What remains then is the attenuation per unit length (a/ul), "leakage from the lines", and anything along the line(s) which will shunt and thus attenuate the signal. Since the cables used for power distribution are not intended to carry RF they are not characterized for loss at FM frequencies but such losses are likely high due to the dielectric used as insulation. This would mean that the signal would be lost at some distance from the transmitter. Without knowing the actual a/ul a prediction of the signal strength at a distance is not possible and would need some lab work to determine.

Carrier current would imply that coupling to the receiver would be either through the receiver power leads and/or by radiation from the power lines to the receiver antenna. An ideal twin lead transmission line will not radiate a signal unless there is some unbalance in the currents in the conductors and such an unbalance is likely to be caused by junctions and devices connected along the line which are not predictable other than to say there could be radiation due to this. Many electronic devices have noise filtering at their power line inputs which will shunt the RF signal from line to line and line to ground so this works against signal propagation.

Unbalance could be achieved by feeding one side of the coupler differential output to a power conductor and the other side to another physically separate cable or ground lead but doing so will not yield a predictable load impedance, though this could be addressed by adjusting the coupler for proper loading.

Back to the "maybe yes and maybe no" answer, considering the theory it is worth experimenting with the idea of FM carrier current.

This raises the question of the 250 uV/m at 3 meters limit in regards to what is the 3 meter distance measured from but I'll leave that to another thread.

Neil


 
Posted : 19/09/2013 4:50 am
 Anonymous
(@Anonymous)
Posts: 0
 

The Part 15 carrier current rules are not one paragraph in a single section, they are combined here, there, foward, backward, intertwined with other rules, and at the end there's still another part somewhere else.

Earlier today on the other CC thread I reported that carrier current is described as existing between 9kHz and 30mHz, so far as rules go, but now I am finding another part where limitations are set on frequencies above 30mHz, and once I get my head un-mixed I'll file a report on what I think it says.


 
Posted : 19/09/2013 12:17 pm
 Anonymous
(@Anonymous)
Posts: 0
 

should probably be posted in the other thread since that is where the subject was started. That way we won't dilute either thread.

Neil


 
Posted : 19/09/2013 12:55 pm
 Anonymous
(@Anonymous)
Posts: 0
 

i just got done talking to rich about ccfm and thats fine and you know CCFM is not that well known, and carls right too about that but if you want to copy my post to rich on carrier current fm thats fine neil! and you know it works but theres several condition factor that have to be taken in consideration.


 
Posted : 19/09/2013 3:57 pm
 Anonymous
(@Anonymous)
Posts: 0
 

Wasn't BPL supposed to go up to

70 MHz or so?  Am I wrong?

That's not too different than 88 mhz.

???????

Bruce, DOGRADIO


 
Posted : 19/09/2013 7:24 pm
Forum Jump:
  Previous Topic
Next Topic  
Share:
Forum Information
Recent Posts
Unread Posts
Tags
  • 13 Forums
  • 7,740 Topics
  • 63.5 K Posts
  • 62 Online
  • 2,249 Members
Our newest member: electronic
Latest Post: 7 Beatles Misheard Lyrics
Forum Icons: Forum contains no unread posts Forum contains unread posts
Topic Icons: Not Replied Replied Active Hot Sticky Unapproved Solved Private Closed

Primary Sidebar

Online Members

 No online members at the moment

Recent Posts

  • Mark

    RE: 7 Beatles Misheard Lyrics

    Many songs have I heard something other than the actual...

    By Mark , 1 day ago

  • Mark

    RE: 7 Beatles Misheard Lyrics

    Have you heard this?

    By Mark , 1 day ago

  • RichPowers

    Unique AM Transmitter

    Here one I've not seen before. they're $69.50 on eBay, ...

    By RichPowers , 2 days ago

  • RichPowers

    7 Beatles Misheard Lyrics

    As far as I'm concerned this article is ridiculous, I d...

    By RichPowers , 2 days ago

  • Mark

    RE: Newly Discovered Robert Johnson in Stunning Clarity

    @richpowers Sounds good.

    By Mark , 2 days ago

Recent Topics

  • RichPowers

    Unique AM Transmitter

    By RichPowers 2 days ago

  • RichPowers

    7 Beatles Misheard Lyrics

    By RichPowers 2 days ago

  • RichPowers

    Public Domain Feature Films about Radio

    By RichPowers 3 days ago

  • RichPowers

    Speed Limit 17.3mph

    By RichPowers 5 days ago

  • ArtisanRadio

    Artisan Radio Pivots Again

    By ArtisanRadio 5 days ago

Topic Tags

  • Carl Blare3
  • KDX RADIO3
  • WINDOZE3
  • Transmitter2
  • Radio Phvern2
  • station upgrade2
  • archive.org2
  • playlist2
  • Zara Radio2
  • Carrier Current1
View all tags (74)

Copyright © 2026 · Part15.org · Log in

‹›×

    ‹›×