Tagged: AM digital satellite receiver FM
- October 29, 2019 at 8:16 pm #113228
Here’s food for thought….
- November 2, 2019 at 1:24 pm #113255
Thanks for the link which has content which I classify as wishful thinking. Interference has never stopped me from listening to programming which I wanted to hear. The reason I no longer listen to broadcast radio, neither AM nor FM, is that there is nothing I want to hear available and that I cannot stand 25 minutes per hour of commercials and self promotional breaks. There is so much more available via streaming that I don’t need broadcast radio anymore.
My opinion is that traditional radio directed at a common denominator and financed by commercials time has expired. Putting the garbage in a new box won’t make it more appealing.
- November 2, 2019 at 4:04 pm #113256
I do agree that going digital won’t get any more listeners.
As for the commercials they all wouldn’t be there if no one was listening.
We the hobbiests not only keep radio playing what the commercial stations won’t but also commercial free. That’s one of my main promos.
- November 2, 2019 at 6:04 pm #113258
Mark, you make a good point that they can still play commercials because some are listening, however, the linked article demonstrates that the broadcasters apparently perceive a problem with declining numbers of listeners.
I only spoke for myself in my previous post but I know my wife does not listen to broadcast radio, and neither do my sons who I have asked about this. They, as do I, seek streaming programming which suits our interests and is commercial free.
Regarding our “hobby”, I broadcast to myself, usually music which I enjoy as I wander around my humble property, and if anyone else nearby tunes in, so much the better, but that is not the reason I am on the air. I seek neither fame, fortune, nor money from my hobby, yet still enjoy the technology and the fun of sending a signal out that someone other than myself may hear.
I wish the broadcasters the best but they will have to do so without me. I will always have my AM transmitters and my AM radios to enjoy regardless of what they do.
- November 3, 2019 at 5:21 am #113260timinboveyParticipant
Total posts : 635
The linked article indicates that “AM” broadcasters are having issues, not “broadcasters”. With the increasing noise floor and interference issues, ancient night time power and pattern rules still in effect and other issues it’s been tough for AM to compete with FM from a listenability standpoint. Add to this that most advertising agencies won’t place buys with AM only stations, and you just barely begin to see the issues.
As one who works for three stations, all locally owned an operated by the same owner, all in the same building, 1 legacy AM (since 1948) and two 100,000 watt FM’s, I see the differences daily. We just last week put an FM translator on the air for our AM, which gives us about the same coverage area as we get turing the day, except no interference, and no loss of coverage when we change pattern at night. The listening experience is dramatically different for the better.
Broadcast radio still remains number one in advertising reach for the dollar and number one for discovering new music.
I’m perplexed by the comment about 25 minutes of advertising in an hour. I’ve never actually heard this anywhere, no matter how many complain about it. We don’t come anywhere near that on any of our stations, simply because we don’t allow it. Nor do any of the stations in the upper half of the state. A good grasp on the costs of operating a commercial broadcast station helps one understand the need for advertising. Tens of thousands for music rights yearly. Tens of thousands for electricity yearly. And that’s not even 1/10th of it. The people complain “All the stations are the same. Live local radio is dead”. OK, so add in 4 live air staff, paid minimum wage. There’s another 100,000 a year not counting payroll taxes, FICA, SS and all the rest that goes with that. and four people is a real skeleton staff. What people really seem to want is live, local radio with top quality programming, with no commercials. That doesn’t happen. Obviously.
I predict the future of AM WILL be digital. And it will offer the AM band audio quality with interference resistance similar to FM. And yes, it will gain and hold far more listeners.
- November 3, 2019 at 8:06 am #113261RichPowersParticipant
Total posts : 407
“. ..And yes, it will gain and hold far more listeners.”
Not sure I agree with that.. For what it’s worth; about the only programming I hear on the AM dial that I particularly care to tune into is during the late/early hours when “Coast to Coast AM” airs… Everything else seems to be constant political rants all day (which kind of nauseates me) or religious programs which I often consider a farce since it’s really just a big business.
That is why (I think) AM loses listeners, and has very little to do with analog interference.
- November 3, 2019 at 9:35 am #113262
My whole point is the fact that there is so many commercials an hour says that the audience for AM and especially FM, is doing quite well as all the commercials wouldn’t be there if no one was listening. The companies are spending millions to advertise based on the ratings. On FM typically here in Toronto(and most of the stations are all the same…pop), with some exceptions, there’s a set of 5 songs and a whole endless string of commercials one after another for literally 7 to 8 minutes! Even if I like the station that turns me off and that’s it for listening. On coast to coast AM sometimes a good subject is on and then endless commercials, then an intro with some music for 5 minutes and MORE commercials and finally program again but I am already gone!
Back in the 1960s In Canada, don’t know about the States the CRTC brought in a rule that radio and TV could only have so many minutes of commercials an hour as on the hit parade stations you had one song and 4 commercials and so on, and so on, and sometimes they had a feature, a double play….actually two songs in a row! It was worse than now. But I don’t know what ever happened to that rule.
But over the air radio must be doing good and the stations know exactly what the listener numbers and demographics are or the companies wouldn’t be advertising.
But like Radio8z, commercial radio has left me behind, not all because of the commercials, but they have to cater to the 18-49 year old age group as they are the ones the advertisers want. So with that in mind it’s younger people that are doing more of the listening. Not the older people. But if AM goes digital I don’t believe that it will result in more listeners.
In fact a person on another forum did some research and found out that broadcast radio has a larger audience than TV as the discussion was who listens to radio anymore…..go figure!.
- November 4, 2019 at 5:27 pm #113265BrooceParticipant
Total posts : 45
I am interested in the science of this thing. I have read that the one station now operating the digital mode — WWFD, 820 kHz, near Washington, DC, has a fairly large coverage area. (If received on a compatable digital radio.) Apparently the station was heard on the Connecticut/NY line at least once. I have seen the “digital carrier” on the waterfall display of a remote SDR in Pennsylvania. When it is there, it is very apparent. I am trying to hear WWFD here in Hartford, CT on an HD radio – apparently this might be possuble under the correct conditions. It probably won’t happen, but it’s worth trying just for fun.
- November 5, 2019 at 6:30 am #113272
It still means the general public needs to buy a new radio. And they aren’t going to.
Some of US will, to be sure, because we’re not the “general public” — we are radio freaks and will listen to everything short of the Jovian Decametric (radio waves naturally emanating from the planet Jupiter: https://radiojove.gsfc.nasa.gov/library/sci_briefs/decametric.htm).
The point has been made before that the only way the public will buy a new radio is if it is less than $20 and that it actually works well. I do believe this is true.
- November 5, 2019 at 8:30 am #113273
The thing with TV when it changed was that you could keep your other TV and just get a little converter box.
You can’t do that with radio and I agree the general public doesn’t care enough to buy another radio just to listen to AM with digital transmission. It also wouldn’t be AM anymore but that’s besides the point.
The key word is voluntary as the regular band would still be in service. Radio is just not as important to the general public as TV is (although it seems more listen to radio than TV as I found out). Satilite radio has been around for a long time now and how many have that? No, going digital with broadcast radio won’t make any difference and will be worse as few would have the receiver and listen.
- This reply was modified 1 month ago by Mark.
- November 6, 2019 at 2:34 am #113280timinboveyParticipant
Total posts : 635
How many have satellite radio? over 34 million, that’s how many. And the number grows every year. And these are people who PAY to subscribe to it. So, they own the radios, and they PAY to hear it. Digital AM will not require a subscription.
Darn near every new car today comes with satellite radio in it. And of course you can get portable and tabletop satellite radios. And you can also use your subscription to listen to the content online and via your smart speakers, etc.
Any transition is difficult and takes time. Read all the old articles about how that new fangled thing called “FM” would never catch on, due the cost of the fancy new radios, and lack of stations, and blah blah blah, and it would only be good for classical music and jazz and the general public would NEVER go for that system. HA! We’ve been down all these roads before.
I believe it would indeed still be AM radio. The modulation scheme is the same, signals sent by controlling the amplitude of the signal.
- November 6, 2019 at 7:59 am #113281
Good points to be sure, Tim. But…
The XM Satellite Radio rollout took place in September 2001. XM was the granddaddy of all satellite services and at the time there was nothing else like it anywhere — other than terrestrial stations streaming RealAudio. After some rough times and a merger with Sirius, the service became, literally, the only game in town. But now it faces competition from Spotify, Pandora, iHeart, more streaming terrestrial radio stations and goodness knows what else. And we can receive all of that on a device we already own, if only out of necessity: a cellphone.
To receive digital AM, we literally have to purchase a new radio which, at the moment, is being described as a single-band device. If we’re bundling it with an FM-HD section as well, a receiver still needs to have an affordable price-point to make it worthwhile.
As for FM, the current channel lineup (88-108 MHz), established in 1945, took until the end of the 1970s to become the dominant consumer broadcast band in the U.S. (source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_broadcasting_in_the_United_States). I can’t imagine AM owners wanting to wait 30+ years to see if their gamble on digital technology pays off.
Finally, something no one thought much about: in a public demonstration to convince prospective customers, what would you A/B a digital AM signal against to prove its superiority, or at least its parity with other formats? I would go into detail, but let the question sink in a bit and it will answer itself.
I am all for improving the AM band, but its the oldest form of wireless electronic communication we have, and it’s going to take a lot of push — along with impossibly inexpensive receivers — to get the public excited about a one-hundred-year-old medium.
Watching with interest.
- November 8, 2019 at 1:51 pm #113299
Tim remarked “I’m perplexed by the comment about 25 minutes of advertising in an hour. I’ve never actually heard this anywhere, no matter how many complain about it.”
I am also perplexed but I measured this using a stop watch during the third hour of the Rush Limbaugh program aired on WTVN in Columbus, Ohio. I stopped the watch if any commercial content appeared and started it again when genuine content and news was aired. In the third hour there are “live reads” of ads during the “programming” which further eroded the program time.
I no longer listen to this program for this reason.
- November 8, 2019 at 10:06 pm #113300
I have a few things to say about this all digital AM stunt that is about to be pulled on everyone.
First off I think it’s a disguise for the real reason they want to try this. There are some folks who believe that a common individual could never possibly transmit MA3 which was one of my concerns when I discussed it with my broadcast engineer friend.
Now hold on your britches for what I’m about to tell you and this came from him. A pirate is already transmitting MA3 all digital AM and apparently he is making the encoding software available. Right now my ASMAX2 C-Quam AM stereo transmitter has DRM digital transmission capabilities right out of the box. According to the engineer friend of mine it would not be impossible to replace the DRM with the MA3 format that is being proposed for HD radio all digital AM
So the folks at the NAB who is really trying to push this is really not so smart we’re already one step ahead and we’re ready when all of these radios start to become all digital.
Now that I’ve revealed that part is something that I have a question about not a whole lot of sound files are available showing the sound of MA3 so I’ve got to ask the question is this going to be a super lossy compression format where it sounds like a low bit-rate MP3 or in this case a very low bit-rate AAC plus format where it’s less than 24 kilobits and there is absolutely no hi end audio in it at all but otherwise a watery type sound which is really not good for music.
Next is the dropouts issue we all know how HD FM sounds with all the dropouts that you get. Supposedly according to a report I have read the MA3 format transmits just as far is analog does but with less wattage. If this is the case it could really help part 15 operators who dare to transmit MA3 depending on how much the hacker is selling the software for. Hopefully it’s less than $100.
The way I understand it right now the encoder that is being sold by him does not have the capability of RDS text information on the display itself which really doesn’t bother me too much as long as I could get listeners.
In the beginning I wouldn’t transmit all digital format 24/7 it may be certain days of the week and only for a few hours during that day just to see if I can get anybody with an HD car radio to listen and measure my distance to see if it increases or decreases.
Still I think c – q u a m AM stereo is the way to go because it works and it’s compatible with present radios of today. otherwise people would have to buy new radios and I can tell you that HD radios are not going to be cheap. Sparc does have one though that you might be able to get used for around $50 on eBay but you have to plug it into computer speakers to get stereo and I’m not sure just how good the AM section is on that radio.
- November 11, 2019 at 7:10 am #113303
- November 11, 2019 at 3:25 pm #113306
I agree with AM radiolegend. Isn’t this considered illegal operation?
- November 12, 2019 at 11:41 pm #113310
Okay I’m going to go out on a limb here and I’m going to call a spade a spade I’m going to tell you a little bit of something about your favorite little company that you are protecting so much called Ibiquity. When I get done shedding the light then you’ll see who the real thief really is in all of this.
Looking into the actual code which HD radio uses once it was deconstructed we find that it is stolen from a format known as AAC plus. AAC plus should it sound familiar to you it should because it was a code or codec used by Apple. It was later licensed for Internet radio streaming because it was superior to the MP3 format because you could have a lower bitrate with this format and get the same result as an MP3 with a higher bitrate.
Your favorite little HD radio company decided they were going to put a proprietary rapper on a code they stole from another company which just as you say is illegal then they charged radio stations for the licensing of a code or codec they stoled and people are so stupid as to pay them the high price of licensing to put it in their transmitters and the radio companies had to pay to put it into their radios. Now that this is out a few of the people in my group who discovered the code plan on letting the makers of a a c plus I know exactly what this little company did and hopes to sue them out of existence.
Certain people in my group are out to put an end to digital radio and bring back the C – q u a m AM stereo format. Which by the way did not steal from any other company.
Back in the days of the commodore 64 and the Apple computer remember that the commodore Amiga with its graphic operating environment system which they called geoz at the time was taken from Apple. Apple even accused Microsoft of stealing their idea when Windows was invented.
And then there is the Samsung iPhone fiasco where Samsung was accused I’m stealing some of iPhones technology to come up with their technology Android was accused of stealing and on and on it goes. Companies steal from each other and try to make the code better.
Those that say because it’s digital a hobby broadcaster cannot transmit in that format is Ludacris once the code is out and the genie is out of the bottle it cannot be put back in the bottle ever again no matter how you slice it so HD radio has been hacked nothing can be done about it and as I said I will be using it in my transmitter all I have to do is burn the code into the eprom and erase the DRM code and replace it with the code for MA3. Some of us can lay down and cry that the hobby has been destroyed by digital radio and some of us can fight.
I’ve said it on my Facebook page when I had an infection that almost got to my heart and killed me and while I was in the hospital I made the statement that until my rotting corpse is in the ground there will be nothing that stops my radio station from bringing album-oriented Rock to the masses not digital radio not MA3 not Ibiquity not the NAB not Satan himself will stop me.
I am very dedicated into this craft and I have people in the upper echelon who has donated to my radio station and put a lot of money into it. You just don’t know the whole story. I even have very close contacts with some very famous rock artists from Canada did I talk to and who have donated hundreds of dollars to my radio station and believe me as the sun comes up every day they will do whatever it takes to make it happen. if the dude that has the code wants $1,000 for it trust and believe that my associates will see to it that I get the thousand dollars to buy the code. Again I say it nothing will stop album-oriented Rock from becoming the format for true educated adults who appreciate good music.
It was the one driving force that made me fight to get better while in the hospital so you can take it to the bank when I say what I say and how I say it I don’t just talk to make noise I mean what I say and I say what I mean and I think I’ve proven it time and again.
When you say words like stealing you better take a look at the historical events that took place that made digital radio in the first place because the very company you’re protecting is the very thief in and of itself that stole the AAC plus code wrapped in our own proprietary format charged a huge fee for it and got away scot-free with murder and to a few of us put a stop to it.
Ibiquity show no longer get away with their lies and deceit while trying to dominate radio ever again because a few of us made fools out of them and put them back in their place which is a stupid thief getting away with murder what a horrible technology that was due for failure in the first place well they a scam radio stations and the general public out of their hard-earned money. So long begone with you and let’s go back to regular radio. Otherwise will get your dox post them up for the world to see and make you look like the fool that you really are. Anyone who is fooled by their circus stunts all these years now know the truth that the company is a thief they stole the code known as AAC plus and then try to make money by putting their own wrapper around it to try to disguise it as something else. Shame on them for trying to rip off the general public and radio station owners across the country. So be gone with them I say.
- November 13, 2019 at 8:04 am #113311AMRadiolegendParticipant
Total posts : 308
- November 13, 2019 at 8:31 am #113312
So Legacy if you do this how do you find “empty space” and how do you know that you are not causing interference?
Since this didn’t exist before no rules were made for it but can’t that change?
This is not all happening yet and won’t for a long time. Aren’t you jumping the gun?
- November 13, 2019 at 8:51 am #113313
Leg, I’ve been looking on the web for any reports or court filings backing up your claim that AAC was stolen. I am finding nothing. If you know how to find these links, please share them.
And FWIW, since another forum has been talking about SDR receivers, it should be noted that there is an open-source method to listen to HD radio on your already-paid-for SDR dongle (https://www.rtl-sdr.com/decoding-and-listening-to-hd-radio-nrsc-5-with-an-rtl-sdr/) that uses the free and open FAAD2 library (https://www.audiocoding.com/faad2.html).
No patents were harmed in the making of this codec. Its totally free.
- November 13, 2019 at 9:34 am #113314
- November 13, 2019 at 11:04 am #113317
- November 13, 2019 at 11:10 am #113318
Remember that Digital has to use beeper tones (Analog) to convert to binary (Digital 1’s and 0’s). So knowing this lets take a look at MA1 or In Band On Channel broadcasting whereas its shared with an analog signal at a lessor power for Digital. You hear the buzz saw noise one channel below and one channel above the analog signal? Sometimes bleeding several empty channels above and below? That is Ibiquity at work with an analog beeper tone signal to make the 1’s and 0’s to be converted to the sub channel Digital signals.
Now MA3 uses the WHOLE FREQUENCY for example 1640 in MA3 whould have hash for 10KC’s the whole frequency will have a LOUD BUZZ which you cannot mistake for an empty frequency unless you don’t know Radio and can’t tell quiet hiss from this Digital hash.
So even when AM does try and go All Digital I’ll be able to find a blank frequency to transmit MA3 with my transmitter. Right now 1640 could be used for MA3.
And NO I’M NOT JUMPING THE GUN I’m not the least bit fooled by the word voluntary because the NAB and Nautel are already ready to pressure stations to make this move because they believe folks with Car Radio’s will be the greatest audience since few people listen to Radio in homes. This myth is what will eventually sway all AM and eventually FM stations to go all Digital.
Its a format that is a failure.
As far as reading about this stuff obviously your not a part of the upper Elite folks who way back in 1992 broke the ANI code and forced the phone companies into submission. Even if you got the secret hacker links its written in hacker language. I’ll say something in the secret language because I know this language VERY WELL
y0u f01k5 4r3 s0 d4mn l4m3 b3c4us5 y0u h4v3 n0 sk1115 in h4cking c0d3. W3 ar3 n07 g0ing 70 ju57 h4nd 14m3rz 7hi5 k0d3 0n 4 5i1v3r p14773r.
We the Elite use this language to stop those who are lamers and narcs so unless you write and read hacker language good luck. And don’t even try and join a warez/codes group without credentials proving your not a government informant. Won’t happen.
Oh and you’ll need to know how to search the dark web too good luck with that because there are plenty of virus traps and hackers who’ll once they get your dox your information will be posted on the wall of lamers in secret darknet sites like Death Con.
Just trust and believe when I tell you Ibiquity’s dox will soon be known and well known.
- November 13, 2019 at 5:18 pm #113319
Legacy, I responded to your latest post on Micro-broadcasters.
If you know how to with the help of an engineer to get a transmitter to transmit in MA3 good for you as most of us won’t. As for knowing the dark web to see how to do illegal things I don’t know how or want to know how to get on that.
Things you are talking about…death con?, reading and writing hacker language, implying you know all about understanding this, being part of an elite group involved in illegal activity is not something I will have any conversation about. Or want to know about.
Legacy, you have flown off the handle. In all the time I have known you you have said some things that have been a little ridiculous but this has gone overboard.
- November 13, 2019 at 10:09 pm #113323
All I was saying was that if there is a will there is a way. Everyone says No Way this can happen? Where there is a will there is a way.
I’m not inviting people to join an elite group just letting people know there is such activity out there and not always for the bad. There are “White hats” and “Black Hats” I’m a “White Hat”. A “Black Hat” is the people who do things to destroy others in many ways I’m not that person. I just have an open mind.
Reading the public open source information that was linked it even suggests AAC so again I wasn’t off and yes there are “Layers” because you have the signal the control code and the codec itself. To “Reverse” instead of decode you encode is also possible. Its not all that crazy.
The language I wrote was so anyone who knows of this activity knows I’m elite and know a little more than I have been credited for. I may not have had the money that is the issue not due to the total lack of knowledge of how things work.
And I’ve been very helpful when it came to discussing streaming Internet Radio as well as a software I helped a partner to develope called NextKast. So not everything I say is crazy that is not even cool to think this. Yes I do say things to get people to “think for themselves” instead of letting corporate entities think for you. Its why this country is in trouble now.
And remember the story of The Trees by Rush. Rich against the poor. Maples are the poor the oaks are the rich. The story of The Trees goes as far as Radio too.
Those who try hard will encode MA3 and those who’d rather submit will not encode MA3. I’m sure soon it will be available open source just like the HD decoder software is now. But read the whole story at first it was hacked. These dudes discussed in the article worked hard to crack the code. They made it available to the open web for everyone to use hats off to the “White Hats”.
- November 13, 2019 at 10:47 pm #113324
Mark to answer your post on MBCF OK yes I give it that its not happening Now but I still want the MA3 encoder to experiment with maybe less than one hr a few days a month. I’ll announce that this concludes this portion of our broadcast day and now we’ll transmit for 1 hr in MA3. Those who have HD car Radio’s or home Radios please give a signal report. Then I’ll play Radio Radio by Elvis Costello and switch to MA3 and ride with my engineer friend to see how it sounds on his HD car Radio which he says decodes MA3. We want to see how bad the drop outs are and rather the range is the same or increases or decreases.
I’ll try and record it and put it on my Youtube channel too so everyone can see what happens when you transmit MA3 on a part 15 transmitter. Who knows Procaster may be interested if the experiment goes well. If it fails I’ll also let you know how crappy it was. But in the name of science I have to know to ease my mind what happens if a part 15 station used MA3 instead of analog. So far there is nothing in the FCC rules preventing me from encoding MA3 so this may be a good thing for part 15 because it allows for such playing around.
- November 14, 2019 at 11:34 pm #113327
This site is moderated and here goes.
Thanks to all who posted responsibly.
- The topic ‘Voluntary AM all digital?’ is closed to new replies.