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For weeks I’ve been wanting to open this thread asking about unasked and unanswered copyright questions for streaming and on air broadcasting.
Unless I’m forgetting anyone, I think that Tim in Bovey has been our most experienced and knowledgable example in both licensed and unlicensed broadcasting, but streaming has separate requirements, and Tim doesn’t have his own stream although his commercial stations stream, as I recall.
Awkwardly I forget my opening question… perhaps because I just shoveled two tons of snow… but the stream is here for anyone’s questions and I’ll eventually remember my first question and return… unless I forget having opened this thread.
Total posts : 45366In copyright parlance a stream is the same as a “channel”.
Sound Exchange wants everyone’s “channels” to pay as individual streams rather than a group arrangement.
Their idea of channels presumably applies to a streamcaster who sends one rock channel, a jazz channel, a classical channel and so on.
But my streams are not separately programmed, all three of my “channels” carry the exact same programs from the same source, with each one existing for the benefit of different types of listeners.
My 16 kbps mp3 mono stream is for dial-up listeners, the 44 kbps mp3 stereo stream is for most listeners, and the AAC+ stream exists for people using the AAC format. I view it as one radio station that can be heard in 3 flavors.
If I ran copyright recordings, would Sound Exchange count me as one stream or three?
Total posts : 45366If you’ve one audio source, you can only have one stream, and it’s one channel. they don’t even need to know about anything else that’s “over the air”. You could be running AM/FM/SW all at the same time, but as long as you’re sending one stream to the internet, it’s one stream. If you’re sending three separate streams, e.g. the Am mono feed, the FM stereo feed, and a special SW feed with static added (LOL) and have three different stream connections, that’s three streams or channels. Sound Exchange has nothing to do with anything over the air. Technically, if you’re using another delivery system such as a phone in and listen service, there’s probably something involved in licensing that as well, but I wouldn’t sweat that. To the letter of the law you’d need a separate license for something like that including an additional license or rider from the big three. But that’s a bit out of my league.
But yes, if you’re streaming you need Sound Exchange licensing. In about 99.9 percent of cases streamers use a service that has the licensing fees included in the cost (Like Stream Licensing, for example). That’s about a thousand times easier than trying to negotiate the deal yourself.
It gets complicated with terrestrial stations with multiple channels, such as HD FM stations. They may be one station, but can have 4 different channels all with separate programming on the same frequency. In which case you’d need a separate Se license for each unique programming stream.
If you’re running the same audio over several terrestrial sources, but sending it ton one stream, you need one SE license for that one stream.
Confused?
TIB
Total posts : 45366My question is academic (I think) because I don’t stream any copyrighted recordings, in which case I don’t need licensing.
But I am trying to know what would be required if I did add some music.
I’m still unconvinced about the way of counting channels, since my 3-streams all have exactly the same programming from one playlist.
A given listener could only listen to one of my streams at a time, and no matter which one they listened to, they would get exactly the same programs. Therefore my listener count would apply as if I had just one stream.
Thing is, no matter how much I page around in the Sound Exchange rules and regs I can never find the details I’m looking for.
I’ve got a whole batch of links to copyright agencies on my website’s part 15 page, but it all seems to address stations that do nothing but play popular records.
Total posts : 45366Speaking of which StreamLicensing is supporting yet another petition to Save Internet Radio. Please sign this one as well.
Total posts : 45366Unless you planned on setting up multiple streams (one in stereo, one in mono, for example) you have ONE channel, ONE stream and need ONE license. Their phraseology is not good. But then again there aren’t that many stations that run the same audio to many sources.
However, and a BIG difference worth noting when it comes to streaming. If you’re streaming music that isn’t performed by YOU or a musical operation that YOU hired, even if the songs are in the public domain YOU need to license your stream. Sound Exchange pays ONLY the PERFORMERS of the songs, NOT the writers. So even if you’re playing a Beethoven symphony (which would certainly be in the public domain) the PERFORMANCE is NOT in the public domain and Stream Licensing costs would apply. Unless YOU are playing it yourself, or an orchestra that YOU put together and paid for is playing it.
That’s how you can get away with public domain music over the air. Terrestrial radio only pays the WRITERS of the songs, and since any song published before 1922 is public domain you can play it performed by anyone as terrestrial radio doesn’t pay performers/artists, only writers. Note it’s the SONG itself that’s public domain, not the performance, but broadcast radio only pays writers. This is ONE plus from the existance of the NAB. The music industry has, for the past ten years lobbied long and hard to get broadcast radio to have to pay the same rights as streamers, etc for the performers of the songs, as well as the writers and a huge lobby effort by the NAB has so far been able to STOP this additional huge cost to broadcast radio, which happens to also benefit Part 15 radio.
Carl, you have ONE channel, and would have ONE stream.
TIB
Total posts : 45366i simply run a barix box with an unpublished and passworded stream. each connection needs a password so even if it is running over the internet it is basically a private encrypted stream. no password = no access. VLC, WMP, and other barix boxes will prompt you for a password. correct password it decodes and streams, incorrect password, no stream. this is how i get audio to my remote sites.
Total posts : 45366If I go on with this it will appear I’m argumentative and disagreeable but that is not it at all… I genuinely am hearing double:
Several times you (Tim) have said: “But yes, if you’re streaming you need Sound Exchange licensing.”
Why can’t I simply accept that?
Because I still believe that if one is not streaming recorded material subject to Sound Exchange jurisdiction then no license would be necessary.
Does Sound Exchange require licensing even if a streamer is running material that is independent from Sound Exchange?
Example # 1 – On archive(dot)org are ambient music files under Creative Commons license with recordings made and owned by the musicians. I broadcast some of that once a week but Sound Exchange has no claim to it unless my brain is so thick that I may need pharmaceuticals.
Example # 2 – Once a year I carry the Jazz & Heritage Festival from WWOZ in New Orleans in which WWOZ records and owns rights to recordings and obtains signed releases from participating musicians to allow stations to carry the music based on their sole permission. (stations MAY NOT keep or re-broadcast these jazz concerts).
Example # 3 – 95% of my programs are news talk with permission from stations/producers involving no Sound Exchange recordings whatsoever. Some of them have independent music commissioned for and owned by the producers bypassing Sound Exchange.
Even if my viewpoint is correct, I am still distrustful of copyright collection agencies because of tales about high cost false claims made by them in suits (law suits from dress suits) that are cheaper to settle by paying un-owed money rather than battle in distant courts for $50K.
Find me somewhere between Cynical Avenue and Skeptical Boulevard.
On the other issue, “how many channels” do I have, it seems that in different parts of your description you are saying my three channels equal one channel because they are the same source, but elsewhere it sounds like you’re saying three channels are three channels, even if fed from a single source.
These wheels are spinning.
Total posts : 45366If you stream music. And it’s performed by you, someone you hired, or hired by someone that gave you permission, you’re OK as far as stream licensing. If they’re doing songs written since 1922 you still need BMI/ASCAP/SESAC (which BTW are also required for streaming, in ADDITION to Sound Echange. If your example of the Jazz show that gives stations rights to broadcast, does that specifically include rights to stream? Broadcasting and streaming are to wdifferent things. And in 99% of cases I’ve seen when a station or producer grants rights to broadcast they’re already assuming that you have licenses in place as required.
You could have 38 radio stations in all sorts of formats and frequencies running the exact same programming. If you run ONE stream with the same audio, as far as Sound Exchange cares that’s ONE channel. ONE stream. They have NOTHING to do with anything over the air. They may try to complicate things with extraneous lawyer speak, but you’re streaming ONE channel. One source. One program.
There are many sources of programs that grant the rights to broadcast them. Heck, the Oompah Hour does that. I grant anyone who would like to the right to broadcast the program. it’s up to them to determine if they can legally do so.
A secure stream (e.g. for the purpose of distributing audio to transmitters, etc) does NOT need Sound Exchange, nor do they even need to know about it. It’s not available to the general public. Not anymore than a commercial station needs a separate license for their STL tranmitter. They don’t. It’s not for the public. Although someone with the right receiver could concieveably listen to, say, the FM where I work just fine off the STL, but why would they when they can hear the same thing in 100,000 watt stereo rather than a ten watt very directional STL. And since left and right are carried on two different STL’s, on different frequencies, they’re need TWO radios to hear it in stereo.
So, yes, it’s theoretically possible to stream some music without a Sound Exchange license. As long as EVERY performer has granted permission. Then, think about this — you’ve got a jazz band doing a live gig in a park, and you’ve been granted permission to air it. But that same group has recorded several albums. Can you then also play the albums without a license? No. Further, did the person who gave you permission for the rights to the SONG performed? Even further, did he actually have the legal right to give you that permission? If the band, writer, etc are under contract to a label or publisher, or the contract involved the entire group, he probably doesn’t have the legal right to give you permission.
But most cases where you are granted the right to broadcast a program, it’s for that program. Rarely, if ever, does a producer have any ability or right to grant permission for the music, meaning the song itself, or the performers, to be broadcast. the program itself is actually a THIRD entity with it’s own permissions. e.g. even though BMI/SESAC/ASCAP and Sound Exchange may have the rights to the songs/performances they do not have the rights to the program. e.g. they can’t give you permission to broadcast the Oompah Hour. They license the songs/performances but not the program. I have granted broadcasters at large the right to broadcast my program, the copyright of the program itself is mine, but I don’t have control over the rights to the songs or recordings of those songs, e.g. the performances.
Now that we’re all overloaded with information….
TIB
Total posts : 45366Thank you Tim for the graduate level presentation on stream licensing.
I have made my stream “non public” which prevents it from showing up on directories such as Shoutcast.
I never had more than one or two listeners, ever, if they were listeners.
Two out of three streams are closed, leaving only one.
Now I think I’ll build a wall around the building like Trump wants to build around the country…
A big NO SONGS ALLOWED sign is going up.
Foreign shores look kind of interesting.
See you all next week!
Total posts : 45366Deep down we all have a philosophy behind what we do.
Perhaps typical of many, the motivation for KDX to stream is largely artistic… viewing streaming as a medium for expression of ideas and culture.
The stickler boils down to the fact that not all cultural wealth is the work of the broadcaster, but actually attributes to other performers, thinkers, writers, and musicians who are generously included in the schedule at the wim of the programmer.
If the radio streamer limited his artistic expression to his work alone the broadcast day would be very short.
We take personal pride in our own cultural taste and as social beasts we are inclined to share and promote what we believe is worthy. At the root it’s a matter of vanity.
Vanity is a strong passion akin to the appetite to eat or the need for sleep. We get defensive and willful about it.
Without being any more fancy I am considering either a full or partial shutdown of KDX streaming radio.
For having virtually no audience it truly is a matter of self-pride to keep it going, impressing myself and no one else. As if a few “impressed” fans would be reason to stream.
I’ll even set a deadline… but not publish it yet… it’s up here, where it could easily be forgotten.
Total posts : 45366Here’s a question for our copyright guru, Tim.
What would the licensing requirements be for streaming over a password protected intranet (i.e., wireless local area network that is privately built) that doesn’t connect to the Internet. Passwords could either be given out for free at user request, or potentially even sold on a subscriber basis. But the stream is only going to a directed audience, and not the general public.
Would it be considered in the same vein as, say, a restaurant that is playing music for its customers? Or would it be considered as over-the-air broadcasting, just not AM or FM but digital streaming (I suppose it could be considered as that even without the password protection)?
Total posts : 45366I have no specific example in my knowledge that would apply, but we can look at various established license situations and see how it shakes down.
First of all would be the intent. Which is for other people to hear it. If passwords were given out at user request, how did they find out about it? I imagine all potential listeners would be members of the public, how would they not be? So somehow they must come to know that such an intranet exists. Even a directed or specific audience is made up of members of the public. So you’re providing a stream that members of the public *can* gain access to. And certainly if they are paying for a subscription you can bet there’d be licensing issues. Look at satellite radio. That’s not available to the general public, per se’ but only to people who own the receiver and who pay to have that receiver activated to receive the encoded broadcasts. Satellite radio pays BMI/ASCAP/SESAC as well as the performers in an agreement they had to make, as they charge people to listen which makes it a completely different animal than terrestrial radio. You would be doing a similar thing with this streaming idea. People can listen, but only authorized people. If the intent is for access to the public, it’s going to take some sort of a license to be legal. Exactly what that license may be I’m not sure. perhaps a straight streaming license, perhaps something more if you charge people for access. Again, intent is a big part of it. Clearly your mission would be to have others hear it, so your intent is not one of being “private” like you would be with a stream to a transmitter from a studio, or distributing a program to affiliates.
For example thousands of radio stations use the internet to bring audio to their transmitters. Depending on a particular setup, a member of the public *could* gain access to that stream if they learn how to do it, but the intent is not to be broadcasting over the internet, but rather a point to point system. However, generally the engineer or station staff would have access to that stream via the web for engineering purposes. But it’s not meant to be a public stream. If your stream, even on a private network, was intended for allowing others to hear it who want to, it’s essentially a public stream. If what you want to do is allow others to hear the copyrighted works of other people someone, somewhere will want to be paid for those rights.
Couple things worth noting. Syndicated radio shows are made accessible to affiliates over the internet. The syndicator does not pay licensing fees for this, as the stations that air the programming are paying license fees for use of that content. The program itself is not sold to the stations. These are not streaming (generally) but it’s still a point worth noting.
It’s also worth taking note that is you make a program available via a download, rather than a stream – or in addition too a stream — different license fees will apply, and they will be much more expensive. Good example is a podcast. Because in the case of a podcast or downloadable show, not only can the listener listen to the show, but he can also download the show, thereby gaining a physical digital copy of any copyrighted material in that show!
Just a couple side bars there.
Again, I don’t know of any specific case where a LAN was used to distribute music/programming and what the license might be. Maybe it would never be discovered! But the general rule is if the goal is sharing other’s copyrighted works with other people that material needs to be licensed.
It would NOT be the same as music in a business. A restaurant, store, shop, etc that is playing music that it’s customers can hear can ONLY do so if it’s being played over BROADCAST radio or television. (And this is a fairly new loosening of the rules — it used to be if the public could hear the radio in your business you needed a license, but the argument basically won out that the radio stations already pay a crapload of money for the rights to play the music to the public, and playing the radio in your store is playing it to the public which the station has paid for — and even that is limited based on the size of your business). If a business, restaurant, etc plays a CD player, mp3 player, internet radio or stream, they need a license. Lots of info from the SBA is here: https://www.paaba.org/2011/10/when-should-small-business-pay-ascap-or-bmi/
My guess would be your intranet broadcast might never be discovered, but if no one finds out about it, who would listen? Would you distribute the passwords and connection information in a secret society where members have to sign agreements that they won’t divulge the source of their music to anyone?
Suffice it to say that there would most certainly be a need for some licensing. And remember, in this case not only would you need to license the stream, but also BMI/ASCAP and SESAC. We always talk about licensing a stream and dealing with Sound Exchange — but SE only deals with the rights to the performance and the performers on the recording, NOT the rights to the song itself. This is one reason why, if you’re planning on streaming and you intend to be legal, it’s so much easier and cheaper to use a service like Stream Licensing and many others that cover ALL the various rights needed with one mnthly fee. If you tried to negotiate these all individually, yourself, it would most certainly cost a lot more and be a huge paperwork headache.
And here’s another weird thing. If you’re a Part 15 station, and you pay BMI for a music license (the ONLY one of the three that collects a license fee for Part 15 terrestrial radio) BMI ALSO OFFERS a “streaming rider” for $144 a year that allows you to stream your Part 15 station online, at least as far as BMI music goes. you can only add this rider if you’re already paying for your terrestrial broadcasting. So, you could play and stream BMI songs with this BMI agreement and forget all about Sound Exchange. The rider is located at: http://www.bmi.com/forms/licensing/radio/part_15_web_site_rider.pdf
This makes me wonder… as ASCAP and SESAC don’t issue broadcast licenses for Part 15, and in fact have told me in writing that no license is needed from them for Part 15 broadcasting, might it also be possible that no license is needed for Part 15 streaming? And that you’d be covered with your BMI license and BMI stream rider? This is PURELY speculation on my part. But it does seem to fit. I’m SO tempted to call my contacts at ASCAP and SESAC and ask about this. But we DO know that you can broadcast and stream any BMI music with their stream rider, it’s all clearly spelled out in the agreement.
Yikes, that was a lot of typing. Apologies for any typos.
TIB
Total posts : 45366AS OF TODAY KDX Worldround Radio is sending one mp3 stereo stream configured for a maximum of 6 listeners.
I have never had more than two connections, and only rarely do I recognize those connections as someone I actually know to be a listener.
Unknown connections cannot be verified as listeners, so I am unwilling to count them as listeners.
Since any business contract is based on quid pro quo (something for something) it becomes incomprehensible to imagine that royalties would be due for nothing in return.
As indicated earlier KDX does not transmit recordings subject to Sound Exchange, so paying them for nothing in return would be invalid as a business contract.
Total posts : 45366That didn’t take long to figure out. The “stream rider” that BMI offers siply covers the additional licensing fees associated with BMI and is in fact not any sort of license that would cover Sound Exchange license. BMI only pays song WRITERS,, this rider covers the WRITERs portion of the stream. Sound Exchange licensing would still be necessary to cover the PERFORMANCE of the songs. That seemed quite obvious to me shortly after I typed the above.
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