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Going Over Everything
In the opening post of this thread I made the statement: “It has been claimed that wires above the earth-surface always radiate, whereas those below that surface do not.”
That is an untrue statement, although no one called me on it.
For one thing above-ground radials work the same as buried radials, even Rich allowed as much in another thread sometime ago, so long as they consist of equal but opposite sides which cancel out any radiation while providing a valid ground-plane.
It has been said that radials can be buried below the surface or simply laid on the surface of the earth, but I discovered that when radials are not of equal length on both sides the longer of the two radials will radiate. In my case I observed a large peak on the 7th harmonic of my operating frequency which exceeded the level required by 15.209, and this was corrected by adding length to the shorter radial so that both sides matched.
The radials I just mentioned, one wire laying on the ground pointing north and another facing south, were not buried. But I’ll make the educated guess that if they had been a few inches below the earth almost the same radiation would have occurred. I believe that the earth takes over as a signal blocker depending on depth, and no one has posted an attenuation table telling us at what depth the earth cancels all above ground radiation coming from buried ground rods or wires.
What that means is that a wire laid on the ground or slightly under could serve as a functional antenna yet be totally inconspicuous on the sight-line.
Having taken us somewhat afield it is now time to circle back to the original topic: “Raised Ground”.
Well Ya
Over to Rich: “…installed on the top of a tall mast, and using a long, radiating conductor connecting the transmitter ground connector to a buried ground rod.”
Why the hell are you bending this discussion into the illegal realm when it’s only been about legal installs? That’s what caught me earlier because I wasn’t looking for a departure from the spirit of the thread.
You’ve spent years making the same point over and over, whether it fits an ongoing discussion or not.
You need to be redacted.
It would be best for those interested in such “Part 15 AM” installations to ask the FCC for comments about them.
Actually, the topic of elevated Part 15 AM antennas was first introduced in this thread by Rich Powers End80, with a post from which the clip below was taken…
“… Outdoor Part 15 transmitters which are elevated and well grounded is the standard and well established method of install. Ground mounts are something new. …”
It’s not always best to “just ask the FCC” about specifics and interpretations. Case in point for example when John Reed responded to queries and stated that the wires in a loading coil are calculated into the 3 meters.. a statement he later recanted, and amongst some of the same FCC responses were some indicating that buried ground radials might be considered part of the three meters.. Just asking such questions directly to the FCC are loaded because they have no option when addressing such questions publicly other than to answer in respect to the most extreme angles of interpretation of the rules.
(I’m referring to those where you “just asked the FCC” and posted those responses in radiodiscussions forums years ago).
In my opinion it is better not to dissect the rules as a corpse, but rather to interact with the established and living existence “spirit” of part 15 to conform with the way it’s always been done since the beginning (or rather since 1968 till present day).
It was “just asking” that began making part 15 more convoluted to utilize than it already was. It’s a good thing Yellowstone didn’t just ask the FCC first, this 15.219 hobby probably wouldn’t exist at all today at all if they had.
Asking the FCC is like asking the IRS. Depending on who you talk to creates varied opinions. For example, FCC Amateur Radio Rules specifically prohibit one-way broadcasting. But they allow ARRL to transmit “bulletins” 5 days a week. Also there is the subject of Field day where the rules are bent to allow Technicians to transmit in the Extra portion of the band with an Extra control operator somewhere around, especially if its a club call sign being used.
Yes, as Keith H. says, “Don’t call the FCC.”
Upper Space
Teacher’s excuse: “…the topic of elevated Part 15 AM antennas was first introduced in this thread by Rich Powers End80, with a post from which the clip below was taken…”
R.Powers & I have talked strictly and only about elevated ground-leads at a serviceable level to establish security and reachability by the operator, 9-feet at the most.
For no stated reason Rich brought in a 35-foot high elevated ground-lead and linked it to the chance of receiving an FCC NOUO.
We’re walking through sludge in your contamination, Rich.
You are being asked to leave my thread!
R.Powers & I have talked strictly and only about elevated ground-leads at a serviceable level to establish security and reachability by the operator, 9-feet at the most.
Everyone is able to promote and install whatever unlicensed transmit system they wish to.
Shiftiness & Other Non Sequiturs
Off course response: “Everyone is able to promote and install whatever unlicensed transmit system they wish to.”
Not a true statement nor does it apply to our purely academic discussion.
Go over to ALPB where you’ll be out of reach.
Carl said: “In the opening post of this thread I made the statement: “It has been claimed that wires above the earth-surface always radiate, whereas those below that surface do not.”
And then corrected himself correctly….”That is an untrue statement, although no one called me on it.”
To distract from the ongoing bickering between Carl and Rich I will throw in my two cents.
A radiator will radiate underground the same as above ground. The difference is that the earth absorbes the RF and any EMR throughout the whole spectrum from Gamma on down. Any radiated RF from an underground wire will travel a foot or two and that’s all. They do nuclear tests underground for this reason…..no harmful radiation makes it to the atmosphere or will travel very far through the earth. That’s why the FCC is not concerned with what’s underground…only what is above.
But, the good ground causes the above ground radiator to work better, That’s why you get better range with a good ground.
A quick comment on not asking anyone at the FCC anything as you will get different answers…..If all these agents knew their stuff you should get the same answer no matter who you talk to. This is not like getting a different opinion from different doctors…..this is a whole lot simpler. It’s black and white.
Welcome Mark to the Above Ground Discussion
Said: “This is not like getting a different opinion from different doctors…..this is a whole lot simpler. It’s black and white.”
Low power rules are certainly a whole lot simpler than medical science, but our rules are only sketches, which is to say, they are ball-park readings and measurements with too many real-world variable possibilities to possibly capture in more detailed printed rules, so a lot is left to interpretation by us as the users and the FCC men as judge and jury for each situation they encounter.
To further reduce any likelihood of uniformity in the FCC’s rule interpretation is the reality that the FCC is much more engaged in large-scale regulatory responsibilities with the nexus of their energy aimed toward big money media business.
Our little flea problems are the slightest concern in an inspector’s day and get little more than a passing swat. Sometimes a small-timer gets squashed.
A quick comment on not asking anyone at the FCC anything as you will get different answers…..If all these agents knew their stuff you should get the same answer no matter who you talk to.
A good illustration of that concerns the “200ft” public notice to which FCC Reed responded: “The non-technical author of the notice should have checked with the engineers before writing this. Note that the numbers in this Public Notice are not binding – the equipment must meet the standards in the actual regulations.”
Closing Remarks
From its opening which begins by describing one method of physically raising the surface of earth by the addition of dirt, it was our intention to advance through additional methods of raising the earth-ground in such a way as it would provide total or incremental suppression of radiation from a wire ground-lead encased within a structural-boundry for the purpose of raising a transmitter to a reasonable service level for access by the engineer for adjusting and additional raise in some cases for improved security, while retaining an electrically sound ground attachment for lightning protection. Height above average terrain would be no more than 3 to 9-feet.
The method of ground encasement might be large, such as 2′-diameter metal barrels or narrower as with large 8″ metal drain-pipe.
The amount of radiation suppression possible by such methods would be subject to research and experimentation.
Discussion of such ideas on this forum site are the reason part15.org exists. If we took our inquiries straight to the FCC for an opinion then part15.org would have no purpose. What’s more, such experimental concepts are not entertained informally by the FCC, which requires formal submissions for special authority to mount purely exploratory projects.
Having stated my case I thank members for your input and have a fine spring.
Actually one way broadcasting is specifically allowed on ham radio under specific conditions, including broadcasts of interest only to ham radio operators. There are several ham radio news programs other than those from the ARRL. This has been allowed by run for decades. Info:
And this explains the Field Day rules, which aren’t specifically Field Day rules, but apply in any situation where there may be other operators using a station. It’s not a bending of the rules, but actually following decades old rules:
Although I 100% agree that calling the FCC is like calling the IRS. You won’t get the same answer from two different people.
TIB
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