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The applications for the up to 250 mile move of translators are showing up in the FCC database.
http://www.radioworld.com/article/am-translator-window-opens-with-a-flurry/278026
http://www.radioworld.com/article/map-shows-first-day-of-fm-translator-apps-by-am-stations/278029
Also, there will be no expansion of the FM Band using the TV CH 2-6. As I predicted, mediocre TV channels are using VHF low to keep their must carry status while cashing in on selling their UHF, see 4) Philadelphia at http://www.rabbitears.info/blog/index.php?post/2016/01/13/What-We-Know-About-the-Incentive-Auction
Total posts : 45366So far the frequency of 100.1 in Deltaville, VA is clear. I’ve checked the translator application tool to be sure.
Total posts : 45366Yup, I was talking to Station8 last night on the telephone and said, I’m wondering when someone on part15.us will post about the current AM radio station to FM translator process that will take place starting this week.
I see someone finally caught wind of it and posted about it.
You all do not want to hear what I have to say about this mess, but you should and take it to heart.
I have a lot to offer, but what I have to offer
is best said at a conference with the FCC present, the ones who can consider change.
I spoke to Station8 about a lot of things related to part 15 broadcasting, which I’d love to share here, but, some issues I have to address are best said before the commission and put on the record. That is where I feel my words are best heard, here at part15.us a lot of you are good people and I have no quwams with anyone, but what erks me is here, we can’t speak openely and truthfully without criticism, but there is much truth in what has to be said.
I can only leave you all in the dark, because, censorship is ONE major obstacle I have before me that makes my points impossible to convey here to the group.
I did have the opportunity to speak my piece with Station8 and it was nice having someone listen with an open mind and not having someone say you can’t present your facts because of censorship. With that being said, I can only say openingly, that I think part 15 is more at risk by the people who think they are doing the part 15 radio service a good turn.
I have read a lot of things on various boards related to part 15 devices, web site blogs related to part 15 radio devices, from those who say they support part 15 radio to the fullest, but I also read between the lines and see that a lot they have to offer actually puts part 15 in the wrong spot light.
Time and time again I see mention of PIRATES, equipment that causes interference, JUNK CHINESE TRANSMITTERS, BLATANT PIRATES, ILLEGAL GROUND LEADS, the list goes on and on, that to me, is anti-pro part 15!!!!
With all the BAD press on those issues being posted over and over again, WHY WOULD THE FCC even consider changing part 15?
Does anyone even think about that what we say can give everyone a bad taste in their mouths about part 15 and IF IT CAN BE USED LEGALLY AT ALL??????????
Many here, wish to experiment which is a good learning tool, but there exists a very tight area between the gray areas to offer any possible experimentation.
I believe experimentation can be possible, if part 15 was allocated it’s OWN piece of spectrum NOT in competition with licensed broadcasters. Part 15 should be allowed (channel 200) 87.9MHz and NO licensed broadcasters can apply for that channel anywhere in the FCC controlled jurisdictions period!!!
This way, part 15 does not interfere with licensed broadcasters and licensed broadcasters do not interfere with part 15 on the FM broadcast band.
People might also not try to raise their RF power output if there is no competing high powered licensed radio station slamming thier signals into the dirt on the normal FM 88.1 to 107.9MHz broadcast band!!
If the FCC opens up 87.9MHz to part 15 radio device use, the licensed stations should not be allowed to move on to that channel and recreate yet another feasco like we have now across the entire crowded FM broadcast band.
That is what the FCC needs to hear and the right people need to be the ones who hear it.
Giving LPFM a bum deal by slamming their contour with new translators is JUST WRONG!
But I am not here to fight for LPFM, I am here to fight for the right to use a part 15 device without having to deal with interference from a licensed station.
Does anyone remember when a kids walkit-talkie was on CB channel 14???? Does anyone remember when those same devices were moved to 49MHz? Do any of you know why a child’s walkie talkie was moved to 49MHz? I sure do. Part 15 FM can be given a channel of its own, one that is on a typical radio receiver…87.9MHz!!!
Bruce.
Total posts : 45366Honestly I’ve always been a bit curious as to why 87.9 isn’t part of the normal FM Band, especially after the closure of Analog Television.
You may recall 49 mhz was the original FM Band, now considered a garbage band unsuitable for localized broadcasting thanks to crazy skip.
(Well and RCA had a big part in it too)
It is very unlikely the FCC would ever raise the limits for Part 15 broadcasting, they are in the buisness of protecting licenses. Raising interference levels would be counter productive to the FCC’s purpose. That being said they DID raise the limit for 13.560 mhz back in 2011, so there is a slight chance.
That being said, the way a lot of folks run their stations gives me no reason to see why they deserve more power. Unfortunately the community oriented stations are way outweighed by people just wanting to play radio. Same goes for LPFM which seems to be a HUGE flop.
Total posts : 45366Very good points made there mighty1650
I don’t know why, I have this gut feeling that most over the limit operators of part 15 devices do so to just for the sake of being able to use them without intereference.
I know the licensed broadcasters have rights as community EAS systems supporters, the system that is designed to alert others of emergency issues, I know this.
But, the mistake everyone is over looking is that placing a low powered device on the SAME FREQUENCIES AS A 100,000 Watt station, causes people to push the limit just to get around their OWN house!!!!!
Let’s talk about why part 15 walkie talkies were moved from 27.125MHz CB channel 14 to the 49MHz spectrum. It IS because skip on 11 meters made those devices impossible to use. Those devices were intended to reach no more than a few hundred feet, LINE OF SIGHT!!!!
Moving them to 49MHz was to prevent that issue, perhaps skip runs on 49MHz, it is NOTHING like 11 meters!
Again, no one wants to buy and own a part 15 transmitter and NOT be able to use it because a blow tourch licensed FM station jams that same channel!!! Wireless devices like modems often act weird because they are being over-come by local broadcast signals.
The pre-amps can’t handle the intense RF at the antenna input stage and we know this is the truth. Now, here is my point that one can not be open in forums like this, but, I will say this, tests done with an RF output at 1 watt to the final stage have shown no interference to adjacent channels, if the transmitter’s output stage is filtered properly.
I can not and will not post other site’s results regarding 1 watt versus interference levels, but I will publicly say that tests were ran at ONE 1 watt and during that ONE watt test, there was NO RF interference on 5 diffferent FM receivers at a distance of 100 feet! The results were also flawed because the channel tested on and the 1st adjacent and 2nd adjacents were either slammed into the mud by powerful co-channel, 1st adjacent and 2nd adjacent broadcast stations!! So how are they claiming INTERFERENCE is an issue with part 15 at ONE 1 watt to THEIR SIGNAL?
The issue in my opinion is the other way around, the licensed stations are the ones causing the interference not LEGAL part 15 devices at one (1) watt! Yes I know folks 1 watt is NOT legal part 15, but if it WAS, tests conducted locally to my area have proven 1 watt will not interfere with a licensed full powered radio station, with exception of perhaps your own house when you are on the SAME channel as the licensed station.
My proposal is to get part 15 FM OFF OF THE SAME CHANNELS AS LICENSED FM RADIO STATIONS. Let Television use 87.7MHz as channel 6 and FM at 88.1MHz and up, but allow part 15 FM to use 87.9MHz at a maximum RF power of ONE (1) watt nation wide and absolutely NO LICENSED STATIONS ALLOWED ON THAT CHANNEL!!!
That is why I said, I need to present my case to the FCC and that tests should be legally allowed by expriementation to prove or dis-prove my theory that this can work.
Filtering is a must have, but until the rules are changed and experimentation is allowed, no one on the part 15 market is going to go above and beyond to make transmitters with stricter tollorances. In other words, build a better output stage that filters everything above and below 87.9MHz. A high pass and low pass filter, tuned to allow ONLY 87.9MHz to pass.
FM transmitters with multi-channel tuners make it tough to properly make a tight output stage filter to protect licensed adjacent channels.
Bruce.
Total posts : 45366The other point licensed stations make about higher power unlicensed radio is that it will steal away their listeners. They pay licensing fees and copyright fees – unlicensed broadcasters don’t pay those same licensing fees and most don’t pay copyright fees (in fact, there’s always an argument, here and elsewhere, when someone brings that salient fact up). So why do they deserve any sort of protection?
Now, before anyone jumps down my throat, I don’t necessarily agree with that argument – just that the broadcasters do, and as a combined force they far outweigh any muscle unlicensed broadcasters can bring forward to the FCC.
And the only problem with moving to other, dedicated, frequencies is that there will be no one around to listen to them. Unless you do it on the AM broadcast band, which is slowly being abandoned. I’d be more than happy with an unlicensed AM station here in Canada, even at 100 milliwatts, but we’re not allowed to do that – there are no BETS-1 certified AM transmitters. In that respect (using AM), unlicensed broadcasters in the U.S. have it much better than those in Canada.
Total posts : 45366There is a petition to not only SAVE Internet Radio, but to also END royalty fee’s for small broadcasters. Signing this petition will END this as a reason to NOT allow more power for part 15 or Hobby broadcasting. I URGE EVERYONE who loves Radio as a Hobby to sign this petition.
Now that I got that out of the way I have something to say about AM. Yes its great if you can get an outside antenna up and your landlord will embrace a 10 Ft antenna in the yard next to your dwelling. Although my Landlord loves what I do, knows about my part 15 station and does promote it I’m not too sure she is ready to leap into the idea of the 10 Ft pole or even the 6 Ft copper pipe antenna Station8 is trying to construct. I can see where AM at 15:219 would be a benefit to areas in Canada where FM is over crowded. The range for an Indoor installation in some houses is totally unusable due to its structure. So as far as AM being the Holy Grail here in the USA all I have to say Huhhhh!!! My range is maybe shy of ¼ mile at best from my Talking House transmitter on the wire antenna supplied with it. It is near a Bay Window as the wire goes up the side and there is no aluminum siding on the building I live in. It is really optimized as far as an indoor install goes and if Station8 gets a company to machine the antenna I’d love to be the first to see if this helps. But until manufacturers start making home AM receivers better I think AM has seen its darkest hour. The FCC should allow at least 1-2 watts into a antenna and allow us Hobby broadcasters to take over the band when most broadcasters abandon the band. Maybe it would take 5-10 watts into a Wire antenna to get out 3-5 miles from an Indoor AM install. Carrier current from a Talking House transmitter would have been easy if there was no field strength rule or if they allowed your signal to go 600-800 Ft from the power line the 75 ohm jack could have went into a coupler/amplifier that would give plenty of signal and use the standard socket. Then your station would have a chance to travel at least 3 miles from an Indoor install.
At least if rural stations were allowed 1 Watt on FM without having to pay for licensing and get 87.7 and 87.9 Mhz legal the interference problem would be non existent. Maybe require crystal controlled or PLL transmitters with only 2 channels 87.7 and 87.9 Mhz with the 1 Watt output. A band pass or notch filter would be easy as cable TV companies used them. You could totally filter out the frequencies below and above 87.9 Mhz allowing for the cleanest FM Transmitter on the planet. Again this would assure total stability of no harmonic splatter. And folks would not nee to run these Chinese splatter boxes like the Sainsonic AX-05B. AM and FM should be allowed at least up to 1-2 miles. Maybe for AM allow 4 because AM is more forgiving than FM (Unless you use filters). There is really no reason a transmitter can’t be filtere to the point that it’s impossible for splatter onto other frequencies. Once this monopoly is straightened on the Internet it will effect part 15.
And for those who worry about Radio Piracy: Here is a thought take it anyway you want. If Internet Radio is doomed to failure because of the unwillingness to make rules that would exempt small or non profit stations don’t you think for a second that many will not try and throw on an FM transmitter often overpowered by 15:239? In fact due to Internet Radio many gave up the idea of using transmitters. But now that Live365 is off the Internet just watch and see what the effects will be now. All because some have their heads in the sand and see things one sided on in an ultra conservative fashion. It won’t work. People will want to try terrestrial Radio where as they can be heard and help to make it more diverse. So instead of standing on the sidelines you could make the change and start a petition the size of Texas.
Total posts : 45366But until manufacturers start making home AM receivers better I think AM has seen its darkest hour. The FCC should allow at least 1-2 watts into a antenna and allow us Hobby broadcasters to take over the band when most broadcasters abandon the band. Maybe it would take 5-10 watts into a Wire antenna to get out 3-5 miles from an Indoor AM install..
At least if rural stations were allowed 1 Watt on FM without having to pay for licensing and get 87.7 and 87.9 Mhz legal the interference problem would be non existent….
The biggest problem with AM reception is not the receivers, it’s all the interference that has been created from the boom of electricral and other type part 15 devices. I notice a very stark difference in just the last 10 or 15 years..
I’m a pro part 15 as they come, but thinking that pro-active actions with petitions and such to result in a relaxing of the restrictions on part 15 AM and/or FM broadcasting – I’m sorry to say this, but there’s not the slightest pie-in-the sky of a chance that it could ever happen. There’s simply no way, and it’s total fantasy to think it could.
Just for starters, Part 15 is not, and never was intended for the purpose of broadcasting to the general public for miles around. It just happened to fortunately create a situation that put us in a posistion which happened to enable a method of broadcasting to a very localized area, and sometimes farther if you reside in a prime location with excellent ground conductivity and a relitively quite spectrum.
So, no, there’s simply no way the FCC would ever say “sure, go ahead a broadcast whatever you want, you don’t need no licence, just keep it under two watts, ok?”But let’s just say if.. If the rules were relaxed to allow legal unlicenced broadcasting of 1-2 watts as you suggest, don’t you realize the monster of interference that would be created by every Tom, Dick, and Harry who would then run out and buy a transmitter to broadcast their programming?.. Youd have 15-20 stations in a sub division overlappping each other and making reception a virual impossibility.
There are too many problems involved, and it’s just not a feasible possibilty.
Total posts : 45366I agree with Rich Powers. There’s no hope in getting 1 watt on FM, or 1/2 watt or ? I think there might be an outside chance at getting 1 milliwatt (which is about what the Canadian regulations give you, maybe a bit less). But even then, the stated expectation of Industry Canada is that that power level will still only get you 100 feet (even though those with any sort of knowlege recognize that there are a whole host of factors that go into range, and that it could be less, or much more).
AM at least gives you the potential of up to a mile range and in some instances, even more. And I’ve gotten that mile range with a Talking Sign indoors (mounted on the ceiling, mind you) and the wire antenna run outside and up a PVC pipe to where it cleared the roofline. You don’t always need that 10 foot pipe eysore.
But in any event, with AM in the U.S. now – up to a mile or more. With FM now – a few hundred feet, maybe more if you can get the transmitter up really high. It really doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see what should be used right now if you want to have some over-the-air listeners.
And the FM band now – crowded. In the future – overcrowded as it fills with translators. Meanwhile, the AM band is getting very lonely, just looking for a purpose. I could see a few channels being set aside for unlicensed broadcasting there, and maybe even lifting some of the antenna restrictions (I don’t think you need to increase power to allow for more range – allowing better antennas and grounds could easily extend 100 milliwatt transmitters to several miles and more).
The thing to remember is that just because a few hobbyist broadcasters want more power on FM does not mean that the FCC and licensed broadcasters see it the same way. I also don’t believe that it would save radio – all you’d do is get every Tom Dick and Jane buying up higher powered transmitters and broadcasting their own crap (which can be far worse than the normal crap found on most licensed radio stations). There used to be someone in my neighbourhood who had a blatantly illegal transmitter and it was being used to rebroadcast TV audio throughout the area (when TV was being watched, presumably – otherwise, it was transmitting a blank carrier which was even more aggrevating). It had far greater coverage than my Decade, and since it was using the frequency I was on, I had to move. Think of that situation, multiplied, since higher powered transmitters will be much more readily available (and not just through mail order from China).
Total posts : 45366Yes I agree with the better antenna allowance for AM. I’ve experimented with 100 mW Walkie Talkie’s and different antennas and sometimes got out for miles. I had a friend who had a Yapper toy CB and got out for miles on a wire antenna strung outside. Can you imagine if the FCC lifted the 3 meter antenna and ground rule for AM and kept the 100 mW rule? At least with 100 mW you don’t have to worry about SWR and burning out your transmitter quite as much as 1 Watt and above. This also would allow one to experiment with different antenna designs and actually gain listeners. One could even experiment with AM Stereo as well. Yes 100 mW can go far if you know what you’re doing. You could do a mix of FM and AM modulation that could cut through the noise better. Maybe convince the FCC to allow FM modulation from 520-1710 Khz. If manufacturers could allow for the reception of FM carriers on the MW band we could have something good.
I’ve thought of the over crowding of FM and wonder if I’m gonna eventually have to go AM only? If so maybe we should look into carrier current couplers for the Talking House transmitters. Removing the field strength rule and allowing something like 5,000 uVm @ 3 meters for AM could slam through the noise and get you listeners. Look the old cordless phones and wireless phone jacks used carrier current and got out far, so why can’t we do it easily using the 75 ohm jack on the Talking house connected to a carrier current device?
Total posts : 45366RichPowers Said:
But let’s just say if.. If the rules were relaxed to allow legal unlicenced broadcasting of 1-2 watts as you suggest, don’t you realize the monster of interference that would be created by every Tom, Dick, and Harry who would then run out and buy a transmitter to broadcast their programming?.. Youd have 15-20 stations in a sub division overlappping each other and making reception a virual impossibility.
MrBruce Said:
Rich I have thought about this senerio time and time again, then I did a bit of a survey as to how many people in my local area are currently interested or would be interested in owning and operating a part 15 station.
I did the best I could to get an accurate result without putting flyers in everyone’s mailbox or going door to door. The final results at the CURRENT moment is there is ONE part 15 AM station in my city two miles north of me on 1700KHz, another 7 miles away in another city also on AM 1650KHz. Both part 15 stations also stream on line.
Besides that, MOST people looked at me like I had smoked too much crack and said “I have no clue what the hell you are talking about”
When WXTZ 87.9 Norwich became a multi-transmitter FM station, it took a lot of hard work just to get 8 people interested in aquiring and operating a Decade MS100 FM transmitter in their home or apartment and I do mean A LOT of work.
It also took no time at all for the network to fold when HB started their false accusations about pirate radio operations associated with this network. People just did not want to take the risk of being arrested because of a toy, they were not engineers, they had no way of knowing if their transmitter would land them in jail and felt the risk was not worth it and refused to continue to operate a transmitter. I could understand their fears and agreed to defuct WXTZ 87.9 Norwich permanently. In case you know nothing about WXTZ it was my radio station, we feed an on-line feed via Barix Exstreamers, our various translators picked up the stream and broadcasted it on 87.9MHz from their location.
So, based on my personal survey, I can not see every Tom, Dick and Harry suddenly putting a transmitter on the FM band.
Look back to USA Citizen Band radio, did everyone have a CB back in the heyday of CB? “Smokey and the bandit” did everyone go out and buy a CB when Burt Reynolds and Sally Field got chased by Jackie Gleason? No!
I never seen every home suddenly go out and buy a CB radio. We’re NOT talking television sets here.
The likelyhood of two part 15 stations being within range of each other is very moot. I do realize I have to consider New York City and New Jersey where there are pirate radio issues that are pretty severe.
I can not survey that situation since I do not live in that area, but it is more than likely pirates wanting high power are going to continue jamming the normal FM broadcast band 88.1 to 107.9MHz. Most are there now when they could use 87.9 or 87.7MHz. If their absence from those two channels is because they wish not break the law, well guess what? They already are by transmitting with an RF output above 1 watt. Plus MOST NOUOs are for channels 201 to 300 which is 88.1 to 107.9MHz not 87.9MHz or below.
I’m sorry I just can not see a world where every neighborhood is going to have 2 or 3 or 10 part 15 stations on 87.9. There are currently other services out there that could be at this state, which aren’t. I do not see a ham radio operator in every neighborhood. I have ONE such operator within one mile of me and that’s it for 4 miles, this ham has told me the next closest operator is 4 miles away.
I just do not see what has been said above happening, not everyone gives a toot about being an on air DJ, if they did, everyone would have gone to broadcast school to become a disc jockey.
Bruce.
Total posts : 45366Keep in mind this is the first of 4 actions related to FM translators for AM stations.
It will be interesting to see what happens with VHF-low (CH 2-6) in the incentive auction and repack. I am guessing someone will end up on 3 in MD, DC, or VA. CH2 is going to end up with 2 must carry stations in Philly. CH6 is already spoken for in Philly. I wonder if anything will happen with CH5 WMDE.
@4
There are still full power digital stations on TV channel 6, 82-88MHz. WPVI in Philadelphia is a prime example. 82 < 87.9 < 88, so 87.9 (and 87.7) are in space that is licensed as part of TV service. There are also low power, class A, and TV translators, analog and digital, that are licensed to operate on CH6. Just because full power analog TV ended does not mean CH6 is wide open.
Additionally, in markets where there is a station licensed to use hybrid digital with an analog center frequency of 88.1 MHz, (also known as IBOC or HD radio), they are the licensed user of 87.9MHz to 88.3MHz, within the restraints the FCC has put on the digital energy from 87.9-88MHz and 88.2-88.3MHz and the constraints on their analog signal between 88-88.2MHz.
The FCC is aware of the overlap between CH6 DTV and hybrid digital 88.1; that should not somehow be seen as the FCC maybe allowing part 15 operations now or ever in CH6. Lab tests were done looking at how full power digital television on CH6 and hybrid digital radio on 88.1 interacts. There are no markets with both, that I know of. Baltimore has WYPR on hybrid digital 88.1 and Philadelphia has WPVI on CH6, but they coexist.
Total posts : 45366stvcmty You have some pretty good points in your last post.
However, when we speak of part 15 on 87.9MHz we are NOT speaking of a 1000 watt signal on 87.7 and a 2000 watt signal on 88.1 here, nor are we speaking of a 100 to 1000 watt signal on 87.9 we are talking 1 watt or less. ONE watt is not as powerful as one might think it is, specially on the FM broadcast band.
I suggested 1 watt based on local tests that we have conducted here, how far can 1 watt carry from a set top telescopic antenna? The results were a joke. The signal carried 200 feet before being slammed into the ground by the licensed broadcasters high powered transmitters.
Looking for spurs across the FM broadcast band at 200 feet was impossible because the licensed broadcasters signals were much too powerful to detect any spurs. I suppose all the FM stations would have to sign off all at the same time to see the real results, but if we were not seeing any issues with them on the air, then I doubt they would have a valid complaint that one watt is causing interference to their licensed signal. We used a tape measure and measured out exactly 200 feet from the built in transmitter antenna.
Again, we’re talking ONE (1) WATT not 100, not 1000.
The weakest licensed FM station in my area is 50 watts, it carries only a few miles line of sight, it is also known as a God-caster translator station, one watt is one watt, most stations around me transmit a power output of 150 watts and up to 25,000 watts.
Bruce.
Total posts : 45366Mr. Bruce, I’ve experimented with a Ramsey FM100B, which has output power in the milliwatt range. With a rooftop mounted vertical, I was able to achieve range of several miles to a good car receiver. With FM, the antenna (mounted up high) is everything.
And as for your informal survey, I suspect that you’re right in that not many people will want to broadcast as alternative radio stations. But there are a lot of people who want to buy mp3 streamers, or TV audio extenders and the like. If higher power FM transmitters were allowed and were the norm, then there would be an awful lot of extra interference from those kinds of uses (from people who would really have no idea what they were doing and the havoc they were causing). THAT’s why the FCC will not allow significantly higher power FM transmitters, if at all. It’s not just knowledgeable people that will be buying and using them. They MAY go for a modified, cheap form of licensed broadcasting, much like New Zealand, but they are gonig to want to have some control. In an ALPB meeting, our lone New Zealand member talked about how his range with 1 watt ERP was nominally several miles to typical home receivers, but that line of sight (hilltop to hilltop) to a sensitive car receiver was up to 20 km (well over 10 miles). The regulatory authorities do have to take 1 watt transmitters seriously in light of the potential interference they can cause.
Total posts : 45366theLegacy, if anything the KENC guys showed that with antenna restrictions relaxed, you can certainly get 2-3 miles solid coverage with an AM station (their use of a metal billboard as a ground was effectively making that billboard a long antenna, with the 3 meter ‘antenna’ acting as a counterpoise (or an offset dipole). I don’t see how you could need much more if you are acting as a local or neighbourhood broadcaster.
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