- Posts
I have a radio sitting around that
is called an Aqua Guide 705 radio
direction finder. It was meant to be
used on a boat.It has some other bands, but where it
I have a radio sitting around that
is called an Aqua Guide 705 radio
direction finder. It was meant to be
used on a boat.It has some other bands, but where it
really shines is on the longwave band.
It was procured at a tag sale for about
ten dollars.I’m in Connecticut on the east coast. I’ve
gotten a few longwave BC stations here and there.But I’ve always had to take the radio outside
in the back yard because the signals are so
weak and get covered by house electrical noise.So last night I turned it on and MOROCCO was
in very strong on 171 kHz. Music and news (?)
I have NEVER heard a LWBC station in the house.
The transmitter power is listed as 2 million watts.
I guess this is a good one to keep an eye on.It was late, and I was too tired to roll tape or
get it onto the computer as a file. Hopefully
it will be in again.It faded out at about 1:30 AM my time. That’s
about 45 minutes before sunrise in Morocco.Good LW DX for a $10.00 radio. And right inside
the Part 15 160 -190 band.By the way, I’m trying to find a schematic
for a Longwave Part 15 tube transmitter from
the early 1970s. I’ll let you know if I find it.Bruce, Dog Radio Studio 2 – I’ve mentioned this a
few times and I probably will one or two more times –
My Part 15 station was renamed about a month or so
ago in honor of my dog, Betty, a rescue dog that
we got when she was 8 years old. She made it til
age 14 and is in Dog Heaven now. The last year or
so she spent most of her time in this room with
the radio stuff. We love you Betty, Rest In Peace
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0I looked back and saw that I have
mentioned this transmitter on this
board a few times before. OH MY. We had one
that my friend built, but it is gone now.Well, anyway, if you Google:
Neglected Band Transmitter Popular Electronics
1972, you will find several references to it.
One of the antique forums that is in the Google
search results has the entire article for that
transmitter, and a companion receiving tuner
for that range.So, it has a VFO that runs from 160 to 190 kHz,
and it runs the One watt input with Amplitude
Modulation. It is meant to be
used with a 50 foot antenna.There are probably better articles for solid
state transmitters for that range. And I don’t
think it would be that easy to build nowadays.However. just looking at the articles is a real kick!
Bruce, Dog Radio Studio 2
Kevin_Carey
Total posts : 0This was the first article I ever read on longwave!
RFB
Total posts : 0Check out ebay and look for the “Slinky Antenna”. Lots of different styles and applications.
RFB
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0I think somebody has a crystal set
for kids that uses a slinky for
the tuning coil.Does the crystal set walk down the
stairs too?Best Wishes,
Bruce, Dog Radio Studio 2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Dear Part 15 Friends:
I hereby, thereby, and bye-bye propose that we officially and for kicks launch a longwave transmitter building project. We should capitalize the first letter of each word, and call it a Longwave Transmitter Building Project. But there should be a shorter name for the project, like “Long Reach,” or maybe, “Long Wave Surfer,” or….. I know, how about a contest searching for a good name?
The line is now open for suggestions.
RFB
Total posts : 0“I hereby, thereby, and bye-bye propose that we officially and for kicks launch a longwave transmitter building project.”
Perhaps even set up a Long Wave Network and attempt a “daisy chain” across the entire North American continent.
There’s my suggestion. 😀
RFB
kc8gpd
Total posts : 0160-190 khz uses 1 watt input to final and a 15 meter antenna. ssb is probably best for voice and cw.
gccradioscience
Total posts : 0I need a LW transmitter for 160 to 190 kHz. I feel that 150 to 160 kHz should be allowed there is nothing there even 190 kHz to 300 kHz. LW should be brought here to the USA, the AM band is running out of room already. I feel my radio programming is long wave broadcast material. I am going to just break it out and buy different inductors and build a LW transmitter.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Great to have you on board gccradioscience!!
This transmitter is ready to build and all I need to do is upload the latest oscillator/PLL schematic, based on a suggestion from RFB.
Also, thanks to your inquiry about building a SCA Generator, I will work with the group to design an FM modulated version of the Deep Voice and that may be all that’s needed.
RFB
Total posts : 0“there is nothing there even 190 kHz to 300 kHz. LW should be brought here to the USA”
In some parts of the country there are still navigation beacons operating in that spectrum. I can pick one up on 220khz originating from the local airport.
Ironically, the LW band is the best band for navigation beacons because of their ability to transmit long distances, which when flying you want navigation beacons capable of reaching good distances from one nav point to another.
160-190khz here is completely dead. Nothing but AC buzz noise and static.
Eventually I will have my LW long wire antenna (box style) set up to do some LW DX’ing this winter.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0With help from RFB I have now updated the project to include the big missing piece, the oscillator/PLL section.
The drafting of a schematic blueprint for a LW part 15 long wave transmitter is now published, Version 2.0.1.
The next stage is my building one of these and testing it, which may take a year because I am also busy with other projects.
If someone wants to rush forward and build one before anyone else, grab the gusto.
http://www.kdxradio.com/deepvoice.html
An additional bonus schematic will soon be posted, an optional buffer amplifier to add following the VCO/PLL and driving the Radio8Z booster amp. Since this transmitter has yet to be built in the physical world, it is not yet known if this extra buffer is needed.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0We started to build a long wave transmitter per FCC 15.217, which allows 1-Watt between 160 and 190kHz, with up to a 50′ antenna.
The project will move into an active phase again soon.
Tonight I monitored long wave and noticed that the radio I used was set for 9kHz increments, whereas other radios are set for 10kHz tuning. Digital radios can usually be set for preferred tuning, including 1kHz tuning, and analog radios will tune whatever is on the dial.
Thinking about the two target frequencies proposed By Ken Norris of Friday Harbor Tiny Radio, 162kHz and 180kHz, we note that 180kHz happens to fall on both the 9kHz and the 10kHz scale, so …
Be it hereby Resolved that the Target Frequency for the Deep Voice Transmitter Project will be 180kHz.
Stand by for more. Input is always welcome.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Count us in as an affiliate!
Let’s talk about how each of us can supply a chunk of network programming.
On second thought, the network feed will come from KDX and we welcome each LW affiliate to link up!
Help me come up with a good name for the network.
mighty1650
Total posts : 0Here’s my thought on the a name.
The North American Longwave Network.
Possible Abbreviations: NLN / NALN / NALWNLN could Also work for National Longwave Network
mram1500
Total posts : 0Should we have a national frequency for all stations or separate into districts?
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0On one hand the thought of one uniform frequency is appealing. Would there be any downside to that way of operation?
Also, the names sound good. NLN is a neat abbreviation. But it is a little hard to say. Looks good in print.
This is a question about using the name “North American,” and that is…
is Canada allowed to operate low power long wave? If they could join the network it truly would cover north america.If only the U.S. is allowed LPLW then maybe that would be the reason to say “National.”
mighty1650
Total posts : 0I would think it would be a good idea for NLN
(I’ll call it that for now) to be on one channel.
If someone near us wants to be an affiliate we could simply sync up the carriers, or have an alternate frequency.
For example:
Primary: 162 khz
Alternate: 180 khzNLW can be another abbreviation if NLN is hard to say. “North American” was indeed picked to allow Canada to join the net, if longwave use is permitted.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Good deal. Of course someone still might come along with other ideas, but until that happens, I am in with suggestions from you, The Crow.
NLN ( makes a good vocal exercise)
162kHz (secondary 180kHz)
Now we need transmitters.
mighty1650
Total posts : 0Of Course this still all in the planning stages,
but for every network there is a logo,
and since we still don’t know if Canada can participate there are two nearly identical logos for either scenario.http://thecrow.comoj.com/NLN.bmp < -If Canada Cannot Do It. http://thecrow.comoj.com/NALN.bmp <-If Canada Is Eligible
RFB
Total posts : 0“Let’s talk about how each of us can supply a chunk of network programming.
On second thought, the network feed will come from KDX and we welcome each LW affiliate to link up!”I think a better way would be for all affiliates to chip in for a central server set up so that it is secured and not a public server, only for the networking of the stations. This is where the stations get the programs from.
For example, programs are uploaded to the central server from network affiliates. These programs could be specially produced for the network, or programs aired in other venues such as an affiliate’s internet stream, or community station. This will provide a very wide and diverse range of program material and content for the entire network. It could also help introduce shows not heard of before to new audiences everywhere.
Since everyone’s station has their own program lineups and schedules, having a co-located central server will allow each station to integrate the network into their existing operations easily.
For example, I intend to run quite a bit of my current program schedule on the LW frequency along with the AM/FM/Net programs. I can then insert the programs from the central LW network server into the automation program where they would be best for my stations genre of programming.
RFB
mighty1650
Total posts : 0Thats a good idea RFB,
I plan on making my LW station Musically Focused, while inserting NLN Programming during certain Times.For Example We Could have a Network Lineup as such
(All In Central Time)5am-9am NET/LOCAL (Net/Local Morning Show)
9am-11am LOCAL (Local Mid Morning Show)
11am-1pm NET (Network Afternoon Show)
1pm-5pm NET/LOCAL (Net/Local Afternoon Show)
5pm-10pm LOCAL (Local Drive Show/Night Programming)
10pm-5am NET (Network Overnight Lineup)This allows up to 16 hours of Local Programming.
And a minimum of 8 Hours of Network Programming.
or 7 Hours Local and 17 hours max of Network.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0This talk about resurrecting LW in north america is very inspiring. It is excellent that so many are joining the cause. The network has been named, programming strategies have been put forward, and we are ready to invent the technology to make it go.
Never mind that some believe that LW is long gone. Obviously we don’t think it’s dead. In fact, I see a resurgence.
For one thing there are many folks from Europe and south america/Mexico where LW is well known. I have a German neighbor who is ready for programming on her European radio, both LW and SW.
And with our technically savvy population it won’t take much to “sell” a few people on finding the “inner circle of radio” hidden on LW.
Word of mouth. Model by example. There are a few radio manufacturers who will love us for causing this revival. LONG LIVE LONG WAVE.
mighty1650
Total posts : 0Now Heres an Idea of How To Distribute NLN, and how to classify Affiliates.
I believe we should have a Central Feed (Webstream) in addition to an FTP Server.Full-Time Affiliate:
Carries National Feed (Off Stream) with 17 hours NET. Daily.
Carries National Feed (Off Stream) with 08 hours NET.
Cherry Picks Programming via FTP with 8 or more hours NET Daily.
Carries Full NLN Line-up, but programs according to local needs. (Different Times, days, ect.)Part-Time Affiliate
Carries National Feed (Off Stream) with less than 8 hours NET.
Cherry Picks NLN Programming off FTP with less than 8 hours NET.Of Course anything at this point can be changed, We’re all open to any suggestions!
But now for the fun part, Who all plans to be an affiliate, and how should we program weekends?I sign myself up to be an affiliate, I think I’ll Call mine The Big LW.
So theres one, I believe RFB says he’ll Do it, Carl has signed up, so theres 3 right off the bat! with Bruce and MRAM being possibilities. (I think Bruce will do it too, considering he started the whole thing, but it was RFB who got the network idea)
mighty1650
Total posts : 0For Network cues we could use DTMF tones and Zara Radio to trigger local events, such as Network Disconnect and Local ID’s.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0What about the transmitter? Is there anything around we can start with? North Country Radio has a thing called the AM88 but I don’t know if it’s perfectly right for 1W LW.
I have skimmed the search engine and found some old not up-to-date LW sites with a lot of dead links. It was so poorly kept that I didn’t bother to link it here.
Sometimes America seems big, but when it comes to special interests like low power LW it seems like we are very alone.
radio8z
Total posts : 0It would seem that Carl’s Big Talker could be scaled to operate on LW. My simulations of this at 13.5 MHz showed that it can operate in the 1 W range given the right transistors and heat sinks.
If there is interest I am willing to scale the RF stage down to LW and run a simulation.
The oscillator may need revision since crystals for this range may be hard to find. The best approach might be to use a higher frequency oscillator and divide it down digitally. Any thoughts?
Neil
RFB
Total posts : 0The AM-88 unit would be a very good choice for those on a budget. I have also seen other fine designs across the web that would be good.
I am going to build a LW TX. It will use a PLL circuit with reference crystal controlling an oscillator, probably a Colpits design, followed by a two stage buffer. Then flow into a balanced modulator chip with selectable carrier or carrier null to facilitate AM and SSB. For the FM, there will be the typical direct FM configuration via the infamous varactor diode. When not operating in FM mode, the varactor circuit will simply be bypassed with a DIP package relay.
Probably operate on 25 volts DC and I am going to dedicate one of my LPB TCU-30 units modified for the LW band to be the antenna tuning unit outdoors in what I have called the “Puppy Hut 2” box. Puppy Hut 1 is the current stand-by MW 3 meter stick.
I had a thought on the distribution ideas. As to a dedicated full time streaming server, there would need to be someone who can feed that on a full time basis, and the server would need to be secured so that it is dedicated to the network for source of programs.
I believe it should not be public accessible on the web. After all, this whole effort is to create a LW network and not a string of web streams. The web can serve the LW network as the program sourcing as well as an ftp server.
For reliability, I highly recommend to not use any of those “freebie” stream services as those are shared servers and during heavy load times, which could be at ANY time, may and most likely will cause buffering and drop out issues to the network. This, as well as the ftp server, CANNOT be ran from someone’s home connection. It MUST be a co-located server on a data center and its high speed net connection! It must also take into account the natural delay time of the web.
I recommend a bit rate of no less than 128kps. This gives roughly about a 20 second delay. A 192kps will give about a 15 second delay. Anything lower than 128 will give too much delay.
There can also be “LW LIVE” where some or all of the affiliates partaking in a live program, can all get together with the use of “Team Speak”. This is a real time two way internet communications program that many gamers use for communications during a multi player game. I have used it for my station’s “Z-FILES” program, where 3 hosts are in 3 different locations across the US and Canada, and it performs as if all 3 hosts were in the same room on mics. It is bitrate settable so that voices or voice over audio/music bumpers will sound full fidelity.
All kinds of ways to do this. It is just the beginning!
RFB
RFB
Total posts : 0“For Network cues we could use DTMF tones and Zara Radio to trigger local events”
Not a bad idea. However I would recommend something more compatible like a sub-audio tone. Not all stations use Zara and those who do not must create a way to decypher that net cue into their existing systems without breaking things or breaking the bank account.
Sub-audio tones were used in older two way communications to ‘unmute’ a repeater receiver and fire up its transmitter. Two way radio operations would use these sub audio tone reeds to allow for accessing the repeater while at the same time protecting it from unauthorized use.
Creating sub audio generators and decoders is no more complicated than making a one or two stage transistor amplifier. And instead of using crystal reeds, an audio generator circuit controlled by a PLL circuit can provide a means to send down different net cue sub-tones for different functions…such as triggering local station ID or image carts versus triggering a regular break.
Back in my day as chief engineer at KOSA Ch 7 in Odessa Texas, I used a Ramsey DTMF tone decoder kit at the ICR relay which sat on top of a 30 story building. In the ENG truck was a salvaged DTMF tone board from an old phone. The operator would point the ENG truck’s microwave cone at the bank building, fire up the microwave transmitter, and then punch in a 4 digit DTMF sequence which would fire up the ICR microwave link back to the studio. Using the microwave’s audio sub-carrier capability made this method incredibly easy to implement to control the IRC relay system from the ENG truck. There was even another sub carrier decoder and DTMF decoder at the studio so that if news reporters needed to send back spot video or other and needed them to be recorded, the ENG truck could trigger a remote located video recorder back in the news room specifically tied in for that purpose. Was mostly just a bells and whistles thing, but came in very handy because sometimes a news reporter needed to send something back to the studio and all the rest of the crews back at the station were too busy running around getting ready for the next newscast.
I even had it set up so that I could remotely control the main Ch 7 transmitter via the ENG truck, bypassing the studio completely and feeding the IRC receiver directly into the STL microwave link, and we could feed the Ch 7 transmitter from the ENG truck to serve as a backup feed source in case something happened at the main studio.
Here is a link to Ramesy’s latest DTMF decoder kit.
http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=DCI2
Fairly inexpensive and if a salvaged DTMF pad off a telephone cannot be found, Radio Shack as a hand held battery operated DTMF keypad with a pizo element speaker that is placed next to a telephone mic to control those old DTMF triggered answering machines.
Or DTMF encoders can be made with junk parts lying around in the shop. Plenty of good schematics on DTMF encoders and decoders on the web.
RFB
mighty1650
Total posts : 0Agreed, we should NOT use a free server for the FTP, nor a free shoutcast server.
I have an excellent host that can accommodate both an FTP and Stream, the stream can be dirt cheap since there won’t be many connecting to it at one time.I’ll get with my host and see what kind of deal I can get.
RFB
Total posts : 0“I’ll get with my host and see what kind of deal I can get.”
For the FTP part, that is available right now. I have unlimited storage space and unlimited bandwidth usage on my host provider.
In fact most of the programs that air on my station are uploaded to my FTP and those program files are very large HQ files.
Setting up a folder for this venture will take all but 1 minute and be online immediately.
One hurdle navigated….on to the next.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0For transmission a vertical seems like the way to go, but 50-feet is high for the ordinary person (the LW tower). Yet, I have a great supply of long bamboo poles, from my bamboo forest. They are about 25-feet or longer, and very hard, although they do bend like fishing poles and snap back in place. It just might be doable with good bracing.
There is a spot being cleared up the hill in back for an outdoor mast, at least for …. maybe the 17-foot SW vertical AND a 10-foot medium wave stacked in-line, for a total of 27-feet….maybe I should go out there now. No, it’s the midnight hour, flashlight activity might look strange in the darkened neighborhood. I could start digging the ground rod spot using a minor’s hat…
Awaiting instructions on uploading and downloading from the FTP.
RFB
Total posts : 0“Awaiting instructions on uploading and downloading from the FTP.”
This folder will be set up so that there are sub folders which will contain the uploaded files, a folder for each program title. This will help keep things organized and easy to find.
I also suggest the audio file include a text file with program description and such. To keep things further organized, this added text file should have the same file name (minus extension) as the audio file’s name.
For example..if the audio file name is something like “LowPowerHour01.mp3”, then its added text info file should be named “LowPowerHour01.txt”. This text file can include any important information regarding the program and content, total run times and segment times and production date and any other info as deemed necessary.
Before I create this FTP account, what is needed first is a list of proposed programs and their source so that the sub folders can be created below the main folder. More can be added later as we go.
Information to the LW FTP such as log in info and such will be emailed to those participating. To sign up, simply send an email to rockmail@krocksradioone.com and include your station name, call sign, and contact info. Also include what program or programs you wish to upload so that I can create the appropriate folders. Please put LWFTP in the subject line so that your email will not be tossed into the spam filter.
Each station that participates will have complete access for uploading and downloading to and from any of the source folders. When logged into the FTP, you will be taken to the root main folder and from there all of the sub folders can be easily chosen and programs uploaded or downloaded.
FTP maintenance will be handled by myself and any updates or notices will be emailed to each participating station as well as notes or other important information in text file format on the FTP main root folder.
Any questions please feel free to ask.
RFB
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0Hey there, RFB, it looks like you
and I were posting on the board at
about the same time.I just wanted to mention a few other
Long Wave areas where people are
experimenting.We’ll, there’s the guys that are experimenting
below 10 kHz. Yikes!Then, there’s the old 73 kHz allocation, that
was authorized in some countries, but not the
U.S. I don’t think anybody is there, now –
but I could be wrong.A lot of European countries and Canada have the
135.7 to 137.8 kHz range. I think that’s a ham
band for them. We in the U.S. didn’t get it,
but that’s another story.And here in the U.S., there are people operating
under special Part 5 experimental licenses from
the FCC. The range is about 505 to 509 kHz.
I’ll have to check, but there was a guy about
40 miles away from me operating about 1000 watts
DC in to the final on 506 kHz, and try as I might,
I couldn’t hear him. Maybe I didn’t listen enough.If you really want to get blown away, Google Jay
Rusgrove, W1VD. He was doing a bunch of work down
there. And also, there is http://www.500kc.com, which also
is very impressive. They are a Part 5 experimental
group.For whatever it’s worth.
Bruce, Dog Radio Studio 2
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0There is a video of a guy
running (I think it’s an AM88)
on 187 kHz longwave Part 15.He is using a 30 foot vertical.
If you go to YouTube and type in:
fccpart15jam
…You will get the video. And check
the comments below the video, they are
interesting, too.This guy is not running voice – he is
running a beacon with Morse code and also
a digital protocol, I believe.Still, it is very cool.
Bruce, Dog Radio Studio 2
mighty1650
Total posts : 0Here’s A List of Programs I propose To Air, of which I will upload.
The Hi-Fi Club – A Radio Show about Radio, and whats going on in the Industry (1 Hour)
The New Oldies Show – Hosted By Jim Mack, an excellent oldies program only heard on two stations in the world. (2 Hours)
That Oldies Show – A live show that I will host Myself specifically for NLN. time is yet to be determined, it will be 2 hours.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0This LW network is a giant of an idea.
There is a lot to think about and plan.
We are lucky that RFB is simplifying the matter of a central site for program distribution.
Even thinking of “what questions to ask next” is a challenge….
Here is a “next” question: Will there be a running network stream that can be joined for times when we don’t download and run our own playlist?
RFB
Total posts : 0“Will there be a running network stream that can be joined for times when we don’t download and run our own playlist?”
I think it would be a good idea to have one. Perhaps rotate the source feed from one station to another on a scheduled basis. Like the FTP, the network stream would be private and only accessible to the participating network stations for both reception of network programs and encoding to the network.
There can also be a “public” stream of the network feed on a server that simply relays off the private server, isolating the main internal network server from being over loaded to ensure clean solid network feeds to the participating stations.
RFB
rock95seven
Total posts : 0I thought there was a post from maybe last year 2010 about modifying the SStran AMT3000 for use in the longwave bands? But my memory is a bit hazy so i am not quite sure what to enter in the search engine. Is it possible to modify the amt3000 for longwave and would it go that far down?
160 to 190 khz?
EDIT:
Actually i found it!! lol
I dug a bit deeper and here is part of a discussion but this thread leads to another so a little more digging is needed.
http://part15.us/node/1875
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Hi Rock95Seven,
I do know the AMT3000 will go somewhat out of band, but I don’t know its upper limits, nor whether it will go lower than 530.
To get it up to 1710kHz use these settings
S4 – Up Down Up Down Up Down Up Down
S5 – Up Down Up Up
RFB
Total posts : 0I have created the network ftp account. Now all that is needed are participants.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0I just worked out the key for 520kHz for the AMT3000
S4 – Off Off On On Off Off On On
S5 – Off Off Off Off
RFB
Total posts : 0We now have 3 signed up on the FTP.
To get listed and access for the network FTP server, send an email with “LWFTP” in the subject line, station name/call sign and contact info to:
Log in instructions will be sent via email.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0This long wave radio project is a super idea and I want everybody who grasps its value and wishes to participate to keep the flag raised. By that I mean, don’t lose interest.
RFB has made a major investment by dedicating an FTP site for the programming source aspect of the network. I encourage RFB to keep that FTP alive, because there may be a slow startup, since members will be pre-occupied setting up the physical underpinnings of the project, including transmitters and antennas.
But programming is equally important, and we have not yet discussed how to “approve” programming for the network. For example, suppose I have a favorite program that I submit, but no one likes it. Should it be included or excluded, and what is the voting process?
All of the questions need to be worked out over time, but most of all, KEEP THE FLAG RAISED!
RFB
Total posts : 0The network FTP will remain active for as long as the LW Network exists.
I am negotiating with my current stream server provider for a dedicated network stream feed. Will advise. 🙂
RFB
kc8gpd
Total posts : 0anyone thought of making a class “E” lowfer maybe channelized (Rockbound)? using a base loaded 15 meter high antenna with an over sized Cage wound inductor over a large 15 meter diameter groundplane?
maybe running CW or SSB?
just an idea i have thought up
RFB
Total posts : 0I just so happen to have access to several used 55 gallon drum barrels that I plan to weld together in a stack to create the 15 meter radiator. It will sit on a cement slab and have a ground radial system consisting of 15 meter long radials, about 16 total.
Then again I may just do the “Mail Box” antenna and stack these to create the 15 meter radiator. 😉
RFB
mighty1650
Total posts : 0Well After Some Searching I Found THIS
http://northcountryradio.com/Kitpages/am88.htm
and it looks like THIS
http://northcountryradio.com/Kitpages/pam88.htmIt can be used on the LW Band with an output of
1 watt!it sounds like it’s customizable and can be ordered assembled or in kit form. It costs about the same as an assembled SSTran. I might get this one to use.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Quick and good, The Crow, your logos look super.
Let’s pretend we already have the network so we can start using the logos!
Rob Veld
Total posts : 0Found the stuff from ’72
http://174.122.4.235/~antiquer/forums/viewtopic.php?t=154073&highlight=Rob Veld
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0Hey guys, and Rob – that’s great you
found the 1972 article. Really good.I’m doing some long wave Part 15 research.
I’ll be back.Best Wishes,
Dog Radio Studio 2
Ken Norris
Total posts : 0My contribution to a name for LP broadcasting in the long wave bands … 😉
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Proposing a name for the transmitters designed and built for NLN (North American Longwave Network), what about “Deep Voice?” That kind of goes with low frequency long wave deep voiced.
Puppy Hut 2 and Dog Radio Studio 2 sound like a family matter.
Neil, the mention that “Big Talker” could be re-designed for LW is something worth pursuing. Yes, please draft a circuit that would down-tune a common crystal to the LW frequency, the frequency proposed by The Crow is 162kHz with secondary (backup channel) being 180kHz.
Just for the record, it is only partially “Carl’s Big Talker,” since I built the prototypes, but it is Radio8Z’s, PhilB’s, Ermi Roos’s, Bruce Dog Studio 2’s and Wilcom Labs and all the names who contributed directions leading to the final result.
RFBurn’s LW transmitter will enrich the pool of available choices, and at least here at KDX I’d like to have both of these transmitters, with one being backup for the other.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Assuming there is a way of getting a long wave radio in the car, let me ask….
Given 1-Watt and a decent ground radial vertical antenna, how far do you think over-the-road reception would be?
It is always disappointing that I can only follow KDX for 2-blocks when driving to nearby destinations.
I had the same question regarding shortwave at 13.560kHz, but Bruce Dog Radio Studio 2 says his brother had shortwave in the car and it was spoiled by noise produced by the car itself. Probably clicks, statics and whatnot.
mighty1650
Total posts : 0Well considering what we can do with the regular Part 15,
I wouldn’t be surprised if we got 2 miles out of the Longwave Transmitters.
radio8z
Total posts : 0I posted the results of a simulation of the final stage of a 170 kHz tx. here: http://www.part15.us/node/3008
I did it this way since I am not clever enough to post attachments except to a new post.
Neil
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Neil, I just went over to node/3008 and indeed it looks very promising.
I think we probably have as much fun contemplating and daydreaming our micro-radio-empires as we have operating them when they exist.
Some people rattle on about “the pursuit of happiness,” but Part 15 radio IS happiness.
It gets so bad sometimes it becomes slap happiness.
If only it impressed the women.
P.S. The way you devised the attachment is clever in itself. It does the job.
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0First of all, Neil’s simulation is great.
And I love the network logos.
Most of the longwave Part 15 experimenters
use morse code or various digital modes.
I don’t think too many people have tried AM
between 160 to 190,
so we should definitely give it a go. I believe
this to be quite a bit harder than Part 15 on
the AM broadcast band, but who knows what
we may come up with. The 13 MHz project
has shown that we can work together making
things that nobody has ever done before. And
the new carrier current info on the board is
probably going to eventually get a bunch of
us doing that, so the more the merrier!There is an absolutely wonderful radio source
called “The Low and Medium Frequency Experimenters
Scrapbook. It was written by the late Ken Cornell, W2IMB.
He had 10 editions, starting in 1972, until about 1996,
when he passed away. This book is very fondly remembered
by many people, but almost impossible to find. If any of
you guys out there have it in the attic, or something, it is
a real treasure. I used to have the first edition, and it is
gone forever.I just got off the phone with an old buddy who had a longwave
morse code beacon (cw) on 184.0 kHz about 20 years ago. It
was heard in five states, but remember the states are very
small up here. I think the furthest reception report came from
New Hampshire, and he was in West Hartford, CT. Power was
1 watt DC input into the transmitter which fed a 50 foot vertical.He also had a medium wave morse code beacon here on 1625 kHz
Power was 100 mW. The antenna was 3 meters. This beacon was
also heard in New Hampshire.My friend had one great great advantage. He set the beacons up
at an old AM broadcast band transmitter site. The tower was
down, but the ground system was still there. So he had the
use of a real broadcast station ground system.There was no power at the site so he put up some solar cells
and charged a battery that ran the beacons. When I think about
it now, it was a really cool project.Best Wishes,
Bruce, Dog Radio Studio 2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Bruce, you have brought up something I am wondering about…. namely, how AM will sound on long wave. Actually, you have DXed longwave broadcasting stations, so that should be an idea of the sound, if your reception was good enough to tell.
What is the bandwidth of the LW frequencies… are they the same as medium wave?
And I got to wondering about the history of long wave in the U.S. Did we ever have long wave radio stations before regular medium wave got going?
mighty1650
Total posts : 0AM on LW should sound just like normal AM radio. If I’m not mistaken the bandwidth is exactly the same, except Longwave is in 9 khz steps.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Maybe all the details for building a LW transmitter can be linked and attached here on the thread, but if it would help, I would be available to provide a dedicated web page particularly for transmitter and antenna plans, as I did with the Big Talker shortwave project.
Think about it and cast your votes here and the voting deadline is October 10th.
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0To see why the United States never had a Long Wave
broadcast band, we’d have to really dig back into
the history back then. I’m not sure what happened,
I’ll have to dig into the books.There is one little known story that comes from 1921.
The Jack Dempsey-Georges Carpentier heavy weight
championship fight was going to be held in Jersey City,
New Jersey. People were calling it “The Fight Of The Century.”Ham radio operators put together the first ever sports radio
network, and it was on Long Wave!This seems unbelievable, but 300,000 people heard the broadcast
up to 400 miles from the championship fight! The were all in
auditoriums and arenas. Hundreds of hams built Long Wave receivers
for 187 kHz. They also built PA systems. One arena was so big it
held 8000 people, and the PA system covered the whole arena without
any trouble. So here were all these people listening to this championship
heavy weight match, and most of them had never even heard radiotelephony
before!The transmitter was a 3 kW job built by General Electric that transmitted the
announcers audio on 187 kHz. The transmitting antenna was 680 feet long.
It consisted of 6 wires on 30 foot spreaders. One end of the wire array was
attached to the top of a 400 foot tower. the other end was hooked to
a clock tower at a railroad terminal. The antenna current was about 25 amps!The 187 kHz frequency was a Navy frequency. Special permission to use it for
the broadcast was requested and granted.J.O. Smith, ham radio callsign 2ZL, handled the installation of the transmitting
equipment and the audio feed. That 3 kW GE transmitter was considered to
be state of the art at the time.I think I have a few other Long Wave stories to tell, I just have to think about
them for a little while.Maybe there was no Long Wave broadcast band because the U.S.
military had the spectrum first.Best Wishes,
bruce, Dog Radio Studio 2
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0Here’s a few other odds and ends.
23 and 33 kHz mystery.
I used to hear some kind of digital protocol
on Long Wave. This was really low. The frequencies
were 23 kHz and 33 kHz. They both sounded the
same. They sounded sort of like radio teletype.That was years ago. I didn’t ever figure out what they
were or were they were from. Both signals are gone now.WGU-20 179 kHz.
WGU-20 was nicknamed, “The Last Radio Station.” Built in
the 1970s and operated until the late ’70s from near
Washington, DC, it was supposed to be part of a Long Wave
alert network for an impending enemy atomic bomb attack.There was supposed to be a network of these alert stations
that covered the whole U.S. Special emergency receivers were
supposed to be part of home entertainment equipment, such
as TVs, radios, and even (I can hardly believe this) smoke alarms!WGU-20 used the very first 50,000 watt solid state AM transmitter
ever made. I was fortunate to actually hear it. Lacking Long Wave
receiving equipment myself, I went to a friends house. When my friend
tuned his Drake SW-4A to 179 kHz, WGU-20 would be very strong,
day and night. Unfortunately, no manufacturers were interested in
putting Long Wave emergency receivers into TVs, radios, or whatever.
And almost nobody had LWBC receiving gear, so WGU-20 was turned
off in the late 1970s. When it was operating, it transmitted time signals
and a description of it’s mission (which never came to pass.)
WGU-20 had a gigantic ground wave, and hearing it’s Maryland transmission
in Connecticut was absolutely no problem, day or night.TUK, 194kHz.
Another station that we always tuned in was TUK, in Nantucket, MA,
on 194 kHz. It was a navigational beacon for aircraft coming into
the upper east coast. It could be heard way out over the Atlantic,
so it was perfect for aircraft navigation.
We liked it because it was an AM station that transmitted navigation
data and voice information. It was just plain cool, and what a signal!
The Long Wave rumor mill says TUK is still on, but is now just transmitting
it’s basic identifier in Morse Code. I’ll have to check that. The TUK
designation is not a callsign, but sort of an identifier, that is (I guess)
easy to recognize in Morse Code, because it repeats itself over and over.
Some long wave beacons have identifiers that are similar to their locations,
such as PWA, in (get this) Pentawawa, Ontario. I have heard PWA many times
over the years. It is just below the AM BCB, I’ll have to look it up and
see what freq. it is on.Atlantic 252.
Altantic 252 was a very very famous rock and roll long wave station that
was – yup, you guessed it, on 252 kHz. It broadcast to the U.K. and ireland
between 1989 and 2002. By the end of it’s run, most people in that area
of the world were listening to rock on FM radio, so Atlantic 252 was shut off.
In it’s heyday, it was a big deal. I believe that somewhere out there, there
is a Part 15 station that calls itself Atlantic 252, in honor of that great station.
I was thinking of using that name for my Part 15 station at one time, for the
same reason.I may have a few other little bits and pieces, so stand by if you want to.
Bruce, Dog Radio Studio 2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Absolutely love those long wave stories! And maybe I can bring a possible solution to that signal you once heard in the very very long wave, you said it was 23kHz……
I was just on the WWV website yesterday reading about the time radio station from Boulder, Colorado and Somewhere, Hawaii, and in their history they said they ended their time station at 20kHz and gave the year. Maybe that was what you heard.
That “Fight of the Century” story is every bit as epic as the often heard Orson Welles “War of the Worlds” story. Wow.
Another great general radio tale is how movie theaters tried to lure people back to watching movies by playing “The Amos and Andy Show” on the sound system prior to the feature film.
Talk about multi-media.
Wow, I didn’t know that story about the movie
theaters playing “Amos and Andy,” that’s really
interesting.Here’s a few more little Long Wave things.
The beacon in Pentawawa, Ontario, is YWA,
and it can be heard by some AM radios that
tune fairly low. It’s on 516 Khz. I’ve heard
it a bunch of times. There are two other
beacons that can be heard at the bottom of
the AM band. One is HEH, in Newark, OH,
on 524 kHz. The other one is OS, in Columbus, OH,
and that’s on 515 kHz. Hmmmm. That’s getting a
little bit down there. i don’t know if my AM radios
could go that far down.There is one other signal that is widely heard below the
AM BCB. It is the NAVTEX service, which basically sends
printed material to maritime vessels via radio. It’s on
518 kHz. No problem hearing them here in Connecticut.
They are very strong here. The digital protocol they use
is SITOR-B, which I know nothing about. But it sounds
like a continuous bunch of rapidly changing beep noises.Oh yeah, the 20 kHz station, WWVL, was turned off before
I ever listened to Long Wave. So the energy on 23 kHz must
have been from something else. Also, WWV had a 25 MHz
transmitter, which was turned off years ago. Well, at least
2.5, 5, 10, 15, and 20 MHz are still there.Yup, the world below 535 kHz is a lot of fun!
Bruce, Dog Radio studio 2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Always interesting to think about the fact that our brainwaves are frequencies down in the ELF (Extra Low Frequency) spectrum, 3-24Hz. Then there is a “guard band” up to 20Hz, where audible hearing starts and goes up for a bunch of octaves to 20kHz. Then there is a bigger “guard band” above which the one-octave of visible colors and light is experienced, in the NanoWave region of the spectrum. Those natural “white spaces” is where we reside with our bitty Part 15 signals sparkling alive and glorious.
Oh dear, I flipped into some kind of poetry zone, cut the carrier, cut it now.
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0In the book 2001, A Space Odyssey,
(not the movie) Arthur C. Clarke
described extraterrestrial beings that
saw things and communicated via
X-rays, ultraviolet, and such.Doesn’t sound so far off to me.
Bruce, Dog Radio Studio 2
radio8z
Total posts : 0The year was 1961 and I had been looking for something fun to play with involving electronic communication. I was in high school and I had seen projects at science fairs where folks hooked a lamp to an amplifier and sent music over a light beam to a photocell driven amplifier and speaker. I thought this was pretty neat but the frequency response was miserable and the range was just tens of feet so I did some library research and came up with the idea to use an ultraviolet glow lamp and a photomultiplier tube to improve both the range and fidelity of my light communication system.
The transmitter used an argon glow lamp purchased from Allied Radio and I had a Knight Kit signal tracer which provided the HV DC bias for the lamp and the amplifying function. A visit to a local garage’s parts yard yielded a really nice car spotlight with a large mirrored surface parabolic reflector into which I mounted the glow lamp. The transmitter was easy, now on the the receiver.
This was not so easy but my research led me to select a 931-A photomultiplier tube because it was sensitive to UV light in the range of that emitted by the argon lamp. It set me back a couple of week’s pay from my job but it was money well spent. For the 900 volts or thereabouts the tube required I used a salvaged TV power transformer and a 1B3 rectifier tube with the filament powered with a D cell. The phototube was so sensitive that I had to build a light shield with a long tube with pinholes in baffles to shield it from ambient light and to collimate and admit the UV from the transmitter. It worked very well and I was able to send the signal from a neighbor’s house to mine in daylight over a distance of about 150 yards. I have no idea what the ultimate range was since I couldn’t get more distant line of sight sites for testing. The audio was AM quality, limited by the ionization characteristics of the glow lamp, but it was tremendously better than that of the light bulb projects I had seen.
At the time I hadn’t heard of Arthur C. Clark nor thought about using X-rays and that is probably good.
With the super bright LEDs and photo sensors available today this would be almost a trivial project which could be used to link to a part15 transmitter in the yard if one didn’t want to run cables or use a RF link.
Neil
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0How impressive!
I don’t even know what to say.
What a fantastic piece of work.
And you were still in high school
doing all of that? The thing that
would have stopped me cold would
be the 900 volt supply.I have often thought that some kind
of IR link STL – laser or bright LED
would be a really cool idea for a
Part 15 station. Just to say that
the program was going from the house
to the back yard transmitter via that
kind of link would make it all worth it.
Even a visible laser – which would probably
only work at night – would be cool. Then you
could see the actual laser beam hitting the
receiver sensor.That’s got to be one of the most unique stories
we’ve ever had on the board here!Bruce, Dog Radio Studio 2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Yes, Neil, that is a tremendous project coming from your creative imagination at that time.
What kind of bandwidth do you think could be carved out of a UV beam?
Am guessing that the beam is interrupted by a physical obstacle, maybe a passing person, animal or bird. But that may also be true of other point-to-point signals as well, if I’m not wrong.
Heck, it would be fun having our audio pass through a UV beam even to cross the room, simply because it would be something to admire.
ArtisanRadio
Total posts : 0I’m wondering how difficult it would be to modify, say, an SSTRAN to work in the Part 15 longwave band. Not being an electronics designer and primarily a user, I recognize that this may be a very stupid question.
RFB
Total posts : 0“I’m wondering how difficult it would be to modify, say, an SSTRAN to work in the Part 15 longwave band.”
Probably not easily.
You can build or purchase a unit specifically designed for the LW band and run 1 watt.
I suggest taking a look at the AM-88 unit or the LF90.
http://northcountryradio.com/Kitpages/lf90.htm
http://northcountryradio.com/Kitpages/am88.htm
RFB
radio8z
Total posts : 0What kind of bandwidth do you think could be carved out of a UV beam?
Limiting this answer to the use of components inexpensively and readily available to hobbyists I would estimate a bandwidth of 20 to 30 kHz for an optical link. I chose UV for my project so it could operate in the presence of ambient light which has relatively low UV. Otherwise there was nothing special about using UV for this.
There is a trade-off between bandwidth and receiver sensitivity. I worked on a high speed sensing system where we had to use phototransistors for the detector and 30 kHz was the max frequency that we could use. Use of photo diodes gave higher frequency but the sensitivity was not adequate. This project was constrained by cost and 30 kHz was adequate.
An IR laser could be used but solid state lasers require current control circuitry and present a possible danger with the concentrated beam.
For someone who wants to home brew a link I suggest using IR or visible LEDs and phototransistors. With proper focusing a hundred foot range should obtainable.
Neil
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0The guys at North Country Radio
have good stuff. One of my FM
transmitters is their MPX-96.I think the LF-90 is just a morse
code transmitter, but I could be
wrong. The AM-88 runs on the AM
and LW broadcast bands with amplitude
modulation. I’m not sure about the
power, though.Heck, as a ham, I would get an LF-90
just for experimenting with Morse code.
But that’s just me.Bruce,
Dog Radio Studio 2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0A group of low power radio experimentors called “part 15ers” have invented a small device which, when aimed at the sun, allows audio modulating sunlight in such a way that radio programs can be heard everywhere there is daylight, using inexpensive light-band radios.
The inventors became instant billionaires and quickly purchased NBC, CBS and Fox.
The old fashioned AM and FM bands were closed and the FCC re-assigned to motor vehicle regulation.
RFBurns, a spokesman, explained the small light emitting transmitter is floating in a backyard kiddie-pool somewhere in Wyoming.
Radio8Z, from Ohio, explained that the device uses “regular parts.”
Dog Radio Studio 2 from Connecticut says they are working on a night transmitter that will modulate darkness.
RFB
Total posts : 0“I think the LF-90 is just a morse
code transmitter”A CW unit which would be very easy to adapt for AM with either a low level balanced modulator or high level modulation at the final.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Tonight I visited the long wave band, first on the Sangeon ATS-505 and then on the Zenith Transoceanic.
The Sangeon covers 153 to 279kHz, with a total of 16 distinct channels.
The Zenith is a continuous dial from 150 to 400kHz.
At this time there was nothing to hear whatsoever, except some buzzes and statics.
Oh good, our 171 and 180 frequencies come in on both radios. That is not true with 13,560mHz, since the Zenith has a gap right at that part.
It will be swell to hear the station down there. In fact, the poor band needs the renewed activity.
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0Thanks for the info about modulating
the LF-90 RFB.Carl, your light-band comment was hilarious.
By the way, it is just as hard to listen to
LF is it is to transmit, in my opinion.The only reason I can hear these Long Wave BC
stations from Europe is because I’m on the east
coast. Carl, I think you are too far away.
However, you should hear a bunch of navigational
beacons, although, I’m not sure the coverage of
your radios, and a BFO might help.I have some other Long Wave trivia coming.
Bruce, Dog Radio 2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Bruce, I have always had the feeling I was too far away.
RFB
Total posts : 0There are tons of examples of IR wireless devices. Everything from RC models to cordless audio headphones to remote controls to alarm systems and much much more.
Try a long wire antenna Carl. I am further west from the east coast and I can pick up a few of those European LW stations during the pre sunrise hours and post sunset hours.
They are noisy as all get out but there nonetheless. Ironically the range of 150Khz to 175Khz here is incredibly quiet of buzz and static. Above 175 and it becomes saturated with noises.
RFB
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0Carl: You mentioned that you were
always too far away.It reminds me of one of my good friends
who always said to me, “Bruce, you are always
getting closer and closer to the farther
away!”RFB, I am very curious what your long wave
receiving set-up is. How long is your long
wire and what kind of receiver are you using?
Also, I can’t remember what state you are in,
even though you mentioned it on “The Low Power
Hour(s),” and probably on this board a bunch of
times.I have an old Icom R-70A receiver that does
pretty well down there. My Sony ICF-2010 works
down there, too – but the old ten dollar boat
radio really cooks for the LWBC band.I have a few more comments – be right back!
Bruce, Dog Radio Studio 2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Hi kc8gpd,
What does “channelized (rockbound)” mean?
kc8gpd
Total posts : 0Crystal controlled for each frequency in a channelized format like 163 khz ch1, 169 khz ch2, 175 khz ch3, 181 khz ch4 or something along those lines using 6khz am modulation more channels when using 3khz ssb (not sure if ssb works in claas e mode) or cw.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0The Crow has suggested 162kHz as the primary channel for the long wave network and 180kHz as the secondary.
But for the transmitter I like the idea of the channelized design allowing actual use of any LW channel, the same way Part 15 AM transmitters are usually designed to cover the entire medium wave spectrum.
From me there is no knowledge about SSB on LW, but it will be interesting to hear what gets said by the others.
RFB
Total posts : 0Let’s look at this from the audience prospective…aka general public and not specialized interest groups equipped so well that SSB, AM, FM, CW would not matter.
Most of the available radios that can tune the LW band, like those found on the Wal Mart shelves, Radio Shack shelves etc, are set up so they receive the LW band in AM mode. For this reason, my LW station will operate A3E 99.9 percent of the time.
Having a channelized setup is not a bad idea. I believe that this should be up to each of the stations so they can select a frequency not plagued with noises or cause interference. The two frequency standards called for so far…ie 162Khz and 180Khz may not be the best choice in some locations.
I do know that both of these frequencies are very clear in my area, hopefully the same will be true in other areas.
RFB
mighty1650
Total posts : 0Heres how I see it,
most Americans have no idea what Longwave is,
most Americans do not have a longwave radio.The chance of a regular American Purchasing a Longwave Radio with SSB is slight.
The chances of him knowing how to tune SSB correctly is even lower.
The chances of him putting up with the poor Fidelity of SSB is extremely low.Therefor I would discourage the use of SSB.
(despite it being more efficient)As for frequencies, keep in mind most digital Tuners use 9khz steps on the Longwave band.
The available frequencies between 160 and 190 are
162 171 180 and 189.
RFB
Total posts : 0I fully concur with Crow. If we are to re-introduce this “Lost Band” to the general public, then we must make it incredibly easy for the general public to be able to tune in and listen.
Of course any of the stations may choose which mode of operation they want to operate with. One mode will work better than another..aka efficiency factor. But does the listening public care about how efficient we can make our transmission, or would they be more concerned about being able to tune in easily and being able to actually understand the audio without all the swish swash wahh wahh?!
And as Crow pointed out….the average person has no idea what SSB is, or even what CW is. They are quite familiar with what AM is and what FM is.
So with that..why not stick with what works in the public’s mind and ear.
RFB
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0I think it is great that this group is working
on longwave AM. Nobody is doing that,
and we can see what it is really like.There is one thing. As you probably remember,
WTIC, the 1080 kHz 50,000 watt flamethrower
is 3 mies from me. I’m not sure why this is,
but on some of my radios that cover longwave,
there is a very strong “image” of WTIC on 180 kHz,
or around there. I suppose we will have to take
a look at that problem that some receivers exhibit.The Dog Radio Studio 2 computer – an old piece of
junk that I used just for music files – died.So my station has no computer at all. I have plans
to try to make the computer operational again with
LINUX, but for me, everything talkes time.Best Wishes,
Dog Radio Studio 2
RFB
Total posts : 0Sorry to hear about that computer. One of my automation computers power supply decided to take a dive overnight a couple months ago. I was able to repair it and restore that computer the next day. The junk pile sure does come in handy for those sudden situations.
Indeed that 1080Khz station may pose a real challenge for setting up a LW on 180Khz. You might have to settle with 162Khz.
RFB
mighty1650
Total posts : 0KRLD on 1080 is also heard on 180 khz Down here as well.
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0By the way, I have heard KRLD up here
in Connecticut on many occasions
when WTIC was off for equipment servicing.I understand that the chief engineers of
both KRLD and WTIC have gotten to be pretty
good friends over the years, even though
they are far apart.If I ever get into the Longwave thing, you’ll
be seeing me on 162 kHz, although the
LW station from France does come in on
that freq. now and then.Man… I wish I still had that Longwave 1 watt
tube transmitter.Bruce, Dog Radio Studio 2
RFB
Total posts : 0Here in Casper we have KTWO AM 1030, a clear channel 50Kw dual stick setup for the night pattern. Their signal does not image down into the LW band, but boy they sure do have one right on top of KVOC’s frequency at 1230, which comes through as if KTWO had two AM frequencies when KVOC is off for maintenance.
The entire 160-190 LW band is clear here with no imaging going on.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Often I meet someone who owns a SW radio and many SW radios have LW, but I bet those people never try LW more than once because there is never anything to hear. Point is, the radios are around.
Same is true for SW. People who remember the good days are now disappointed that so little can be found on SW.
This LW project is great. The news from Radio8Z that Big Talker might be adaptable to LW is fantastic, because the diagrams and test models of the SW transmitter already exist. As soon as more data is available I’ll post something to accompany this project.
I just wrapped up Low Power Hour # 14, but it isn’t posted online yet, I still have to proof it to check for mistakes, which will be a streaming premier tonight at 10:15 PM CDT on KDX1.
There will be a whole LPH devoted to LW coming soon.
mram1500
Total posts : 0I made a 50 foot vertical out of aluminum downspout conductor (pipe) which is roughly 2.5 X 3.5 inches X 10 feet each.
I used it on the 160 meter Ham band.
It sat in a plastic bucket full of sand. I had a homebrew tuner at the base.
It was guyed at the top and middle.
Stayed up for about 6 months, came down in a bad winter wind storm.
It was meant to be a temporary experiment so no big loss.
Was an inexpensive way to go and with the right tuner would work VLF.
Ermi Roos
Total posts : 0At 1.6 MHz, the radiation resistance of a 3 m vertical antenna is about O.1 ohm, and the capacitive reactance is about 3000 ohms. At 185 kHz, where most of the “Lowfer” activity is, radiation resistance of a 15 m vertical antenna is about 0.04 ohms, with a capacitive reactance of about 7000 ohms. The 1 W input power that is allowed effectively increases the radiation restance to 0.4 ohms. A big loading coil is needed to tune out the antenna capacitance. Ground radials? Forget it. You don’t have the real estate and you can’t afford the copper–miles of copper. Ground rods and cold water pipes at least give you some place to connect the ground lead. Elevated antennas? Well, never mind. Fortunately, the groundwave propagation is better at the lower frequency than in the AM band.
Atmospheric noise is very high at 185 kHz. Summer is hopeless because of the many worldwide lightning strikes. Winter is better.
Forget about AM or SSB. Slow speed Morse code is the mode for Lowfers. Despite the severe limitations of the LF band, contacts of several hundred miles have been reported.
RFB
Total posts : 0“Forget about AM or SSB. Slow speed Morse code is the mode for Lowfers.”
Modulation methods are only limited by the experimenter’s will to be weird.
A lot can be learned by examining what is being done in the Lowfer arena. However what Lowfer’s are doing today does not mean other methods are impossible.
The endeavor here is not trying to establish 1000 mile distant contacts, or shoot for the most efficiency in the transmitter through modulation or operation modes.
The goal here is to put something on the LW band that the general public will be able to pick up besides buzzes and noises and digital hashes or blips and bleeps of Morse code.
If we can achieve local coverage (and even at 1W A3E a LW signal will cover far more range than a 100mW MW can) for all those radios on the wally world and rad shack shelves built to pick up the LW band in AM mode, the effort will be worthwhile.
The general public will not bother wasting time tuning into a band of radio where nothing but a band of noises and buzzes and beeps are found. But put something there that they can recognize..like regular audio..be it music or voice, that will get their attention real quick. With a little bit of proper campaigning, public awareness to the “Lost Band”, and by providing something more than just clicks and pops and whistling buzz bops, then perhaps that “Lost Band” won’t be so lost after all.
The FCC rules specify “ANY” in the mode of operation for the 160-190Khz Part 15 band. That means we are not limited to the type of operating mode just because traditionally the “Lowefer’s” operate in CW. The “Lowefer” concept is to DX communications as far as possible with the lowest power possible.
I do not knock what Lowfer’s do. Their operations are specific and for a specific purpose. This LW endeavor has its own purpose and goal as well. And the goal and purpose cannot be achieved by setting up this LW network as nothing more than more noises, bleeps and pops. What would be the point?
If AM was not a viable means of transmission on the LW band, then all those European stations currently operating A3E in the LW band would not exist…despite their mega watt power range vs our mere 1W power limit.
As to having the real estate for a ground radial system, well one may not have enough, but then again that does not mean that another won’t. Heck current MW setups do not have enough real estate either..not when a typical MW setup requires at least 120, 120 foot long radials, yet Part 15 setups in the MW band are doing just fine with what they CAN set up in what space they do have…same can be applied to the LW setup.
Again..it is a matter of willingness to experiment and discover what will work and what will not work…just like the MW band or any other band.
If we all stuck with tradition…we would still be running around in cloth robes and going to town in horse drawn buggies sending messages via pigeon express and in floating bottles.
If there is something to be forgotten about…I say lets forget tradition and start doing. Nothing done is nothing gained.
RFB
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0Well, you’re right!
All the LOWFER guys are using cw and
other digital protocols. And it is
absolutely amazing what they are doing.
And they are able to do it because of
those modes.The challenge of going on AM down there
is incredibly HUGE. MUCH more than we
have ever experienced here on medium wave.Going from the AM BCB down to Longwave is
like going from the Redstone booster to the
Saturn 5.However, I am still curious to see what the AM
would do. It would sort of wrap up the
experiments my friends and I did with AM on Part 15 LW in
1976.But, yes, it’s a gigantic task. It’s my estimation that
if everything is exactly right you would probably only get
1/4 to 1/2 a mile of range. And in that, you might get
500 to 1000 feet of good signal.That’s why I am really really trying to find that book –
The Low And Medium Freq. Experimenters Scrapbook.
Because Ken Cornell, W2IMB, did run AM down there,
and he said how much range he had and I don’t remember
what it was. And as I mentioned, my group of guys ran 1 watt AM on 185 kHz
and got no reception reports. Heck we should have set up the
Drake longwave receiver up at a neighbors house to see if it was
getting out at all. I don’t know why we didn’t try that. Maybe because
we were 22 in 1976 and there were too many girls around.
We were trying to figure out what they were trying to tell us
and they were trying to figure out what we were trying to tell
them. THAT was difficult. But maybe not as difficult as getting
a transmitter to work on Longwave Part 15.At least if we look at what the LOWFERS are doing, it might help
us to built better circuits for medium wave.Best Wishes,
Bruce, Dog Radio Studio 2
rock95seven
Total posts : 0Though they have their own share of problems just as AM or FM they do have the un-canny ability to be heard in the most adverse environments.
CW is often the choice for beacons used for aviation, ham radio, part 15 LW and in some cases 11 meter beacons. Maritime beacons are often Morse code programmed into a digital chip much like the one built in to the Talking House.Some beacons are more sophisticated and use a type of telemetry to send important oceanic readings back to NOAA via satellite or land based stations.
SSB is my second home when operating a cb radio because it can be heard for 1000’s of miles and in most cases a voice on ssb can be pulled in when many stations are piled up on one frequency.
SSB of course is all audio but is only good for voice because of the narrow bandwidth the SSB signals occupy. If i was going to operate in the 1750 meter band as a part 15 station i think it would be AM or FM. And yes FM can be used there but i am not sure what the audio quality would be like down there. I imagine you can add a c-quam encoder and transmit in am stereo.??This is a great idea and a great group project.
rock95seven
Total posts : 0Though they have their own share of problems just as AM or FM they do have the un-canny ability to be heard in the most adverse environments.
CW is often the choice for beacons used for aviation, ham radio, part 15 LW and in some cases 11 meter beacons. Maritime beacons are often Morse code programmed into a digital chip much like the one built in to the Talking House.Some beacons are more sophisticated and use a type of telemetry to send important oceanic readings back to NOAA via satellite or land based stations.
SSB is my second home when operating a cb radio because it can be heard for 1000’s of miles and in most cases a voice on ssb can be pulled in when many stations are piled up on one frequency.
SSB of course is all audio but is only good for voice because of the narrow bandwidth the SSB signals occupy. If i was going to operate in the 1750 meter band as a part 15 station i think it would be AM or FM. And yes FM can be used there but i am not sure what the audio quality would be like down there. I imagine you can add a c-quam encoder and transmit in am stereo.??This is a great idea and a great group project.
RFB
Total posts : 0“I imagine you can add a c-quam encoder and transmit in am stereo.??”
Sure..why not. All that would be needed on the receiver is adapting a decoder to a receiver, such as the ASPiSYS AM C-QUAM decoder board.
http://www.aspisys.com/dqam.htm
Also ASPiSYS can adapt the ASMAX-1 TX unit to transmit on the LW band. Simply request them to gear it up for LW when ordering.
http://www.aspisys.com/ampll.htm
Can do the same for a LW station operating in FM mode. Add a stereo encoder to the TX, add a FM stereo decoder to the receiver (same IF connection point as the AM C-QUAM decoder) and you got LW FM Stereo.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0In the spirit posed by RFB in his great pep talk, please know, one and all, that KDX plans to go AM on the LW band. That is the deal.
HOWEVER, in the future we might play other games.
We might try SSB, or STEREO or CW or …. other or.
My old friend Percy Downer puts it this way, “Why do it?”
That may not be the best person to quote, but I’m going to do it!
RFB
Total posts : 0To demonstrate the potential, I offer a sample sound file (mp3 format) of a recent test of my LW transmitter design operating in A3E mode on 180Khz at 1W into the Motorola R 2012 D analyzer and its internal 50 ohm dummy load.
The audio was recorded from a portable battery powered radio (MXC Crown CR28/SN 16328) placed near the transmitter. Audio is then taken from the earphone jack into the line input on my station’s audio production computer running Adobe Audition 1.5 as the sampling program in WAV format.
Tuning begins at 150Khz at a slow but steady rate (manual tuning) and reaches the LW test frequency at 180KHz. We then get to hear just how good LW AM sounds..even from an inexpensive receiver…in mono! (Mode A3E @ 76%)
[audio src="http://krocksradioone.com/files/K_ROCKS_LWSAMPLE1_180KHZ_128kps.mp3" /]
[audio src="http://krocksradioone.com/files/K_ROCKS_LWSAMPLE1_180KHZ_320kps.mp3" /]
Enjoy.
RFB
RFB
Total posts : 0A great idea Carl! The LW network stations can also setup other operations using CW or SSB or digital in the LW band as expansions to the network as a whole.
Why not!
That is what I mean by willingness to be weird in this hobby. The limits are only set by the limits put on imagination.
RFB
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0That sounds REALLY good!
So you cooked up an LWBC
test transmitter already?I was thinking of getting
a Ramsey AM-1C, building it
for 540, and just changing the
caps or coils to go down from
there. That would also get a
test signal going. And the AM-1C
is only 35 or 40 dollars. I
think there is a way to increase
the power of that circuit.I’m just looking at it for the sheer
fun of trying it.(I am still working on the 13.560 rig.)
Bruce,
Dog Radio Studio 2
RFB
Total posts : 0“So you cooked up an LWBC
test transmitter already?”Yep. All still on the breadboard and far from the final prototype.
Not a bad idea to take a Ramsay AM-1C and modify it for LW.
RFB
RFB
Total posts : 0“That sounds REALLY good!”
It does! And the sample is of voice with low music background.
The next sample is of music content. Same test conditions and equipment as the first sample. Except this time I turned the tuning knob a bit faster from 150Khz to the test frequency at 180Khz.
[audio src="http://krocksradioone.com/files/K_ROCKS_LWSAMPLE2_180KHZ_128kps.mp3" /]
[audio src="http://krocksradioone.com/files/K_ROCKS_LWSAMPLE2_180KHZ_320kps.mp3" /]
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0The LW AM samples are excellent demonstrations and indeed reveal the quality achievable on low frequency.
Before I logged in and heard those examples, I was having a thought that relates very closely to the discussion…
I suggest that, for purposes of extending the reach of an AM signal on a long wave channel, one could do the following:
1.) roll-off the signal below 200Hz because the low frequencies consume large amounts of available energy and dynamic range;
2.) roll-off frequencies above 4kHz because the upper frequencies eat up bandwidth and lower over-all modulation;
3.) put a 5dB peak around 2.5kHz;
3.) drive the sound hard by limiting tightly at the upper level;
4.) compress to bring up quieter signals above the noise-floor;
5.) mono.This could be described as a voice response curve similar to that used on the telephone network for speech clarity.
In essence, only “intelligible and intelligent” information utilizes the modulation energy, and the loudness and sharpness of the signal would penetrate noise and distance.
Gentlemen?
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0This morning I am conducting a study-review of the Rules for unlicensed long wave.
15.209 9kHz to 490kHz 2400uV/V @ 300m
15.217 160kHz to 190kHz 1W to final 15m antenna
Getting familiar with the terrain.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0The other day I posted the long wave bandwidth covered by my Sangeon and Transoceanic radios, and today I remembered the little Alinco communications receiver, and it is very wide and long in the channels covered:
100kHz to 515kHz in 5kHz increments.
Oh boy.
RFB
Total posts : 0160-190 kHz
Cable locating equipment 1 Watt peak
output power
15.213Any 1 Watt input to final RF
stage
15.217Any 2400/f(kHz)
μV/m @ 300 m
A 15.209 (A means the type of detector used to make the measurement….Average peak. Q is Quasi-Peak.The word “Any” describes the mode of operation..ie AM/FM/CW/FSK etc.
2400/180khz = 13.33 μV/m @ 300m which is 984 feet, 3.02 inches from antenna.
Just a bit lower μV/m for MW @ 30m which is 24000/f μV/m @ 30m. 24000/1670 = 14.37125 μV/m @ 30m which is 98′ 5.10″ (15.209 Q) NOTE: Frequency used is the K-ROCKS AM station on 1670Khz.
15.221-Q (CC) is about the same as well. 47715/1670 = 28.578m for 15 μV/m which is 91′ 10.36″. NOTE: Frequency used is the K-ROCKS AM station on 1670Khz.
Taken from the trusty dusty FCC Part 15 Handbook OET publication #63. Any errors report them to the appropriate formula gurus at the FCC and Texas Instruments (maker of calculator).
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Neil, I just found your Simulation Schematic from 9/26 for converting the final Big Talker stage for use at 170 kHz. How did I previously miss this entry? I just scrolled through the 4-pages of this link thinking I’d find an entry linking to the simulation, but I couldn’t find one.
This is a major step forward in building our long wave transmitter.
See it here
http://part15.us/node/3008Next step: an oscillator.
So lucky I found this and THANK YOU.
radio8z
Total posts : 0Carl,
Sorry about that. I put it up in another thread so it wouldn’t fragment this one diverting it into a design thread. It’s OK with me if this happens but I didn’t want to do it.Glad you found it.
Neil
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0A webpage is now open to document the DEEP VOICE long wave transmitter project.
RFB
Total posts : 0Hey Carl..have you considered moving your site over to Joomla or WordPress instead of plain old html?
Both make web page authoring ridiculously easy. And you can implement features that html can never do.
Put it this way..if it takes you 5 minutes to construct a simple web page in html..say the new page you just added, in Joomla it would take you 15 seconds. And no fumbling with html either!
Think of it as the warp capable ship compared to the horse drawn carriage.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0I have not done that because I am not aware of the choice. No one has ever explained to me what those other sites are. I’ve heard of Word Press but have never known what it is. Joomla is a whole new name.
Right now I’m going to cling to what I know, but there will be a change right away….. I’m going to start edging toward those other methods.
Thank you for the street education. Junior College is over priced.
RFB
Total posts : 0Take a look at the Joomla application. It is much easier than the WordPress, but they are similar. I use Joomla on my sites and is why it has the very complex and sophisticated layout and appearance, yet the process to create it was..as I said…ridiculously easy.
Let’s put it this way…if you can work your way around facebook, this will be even easier to understand and implement.
Free and it is not difficult at all to convert html pages over to it. Plus these types of web sites are far more search engine crawler friendly. Meaning your site will have better chances of climbing the page rankings in search engines.
The best feature I like in Joomla is that you can create different layouts for your site, and all within the same application and choose between them without having to rebuild anything! Imagine trying that with plain html!!!
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0ANNOUNCING – THE FIRST VERSION OF THE DEEP VOICE LW TRANSMITTER ON PAPER
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Now that I have the 1st Draft of the Deep Voice LW transmitter, I am confused about the crystals.
On the project page I specifically list the crystals values that would be required to transmit on the frequencies 162 or 180 kHz, but of thousands of crystals found in catalogs there are no crystals rated for the needed values.
What, then, is necessary to get “on frequency?”
mram1500
Total posts : 0Start with a stardard crystal frequency, easy to obtain and run that through a divide-by counter to obtain the desired frequency.
I used a 24 mHz ocillator and a simple TTL chip to arrive at 1500 kHz.
RFB
Total posts : 0“I suggest that, for purposes of extending the reach of an AM signal on a long wave channel, one could do the following….
This could be described as a voice response curve similar to that used on the telephone network for speech clarity.”Do not see any reason not to try those suggestions. After all, its all about experimenting!
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0This advice doesn’t fit the problem…
“Start with a standard crystal frequency, easy to obtain and run that through a divide-by counter to obtain the desired frequency.”
The circuit under discussion is here…
http://www.nutstreet.net/k0lr/lftx.htm
The target frequencies in our project are 162kHz and 180kHz
Long wave has 9kHz spacing.
The author of this schematic seems to be ultra imprecise in his instructions for actually using standard channels.
mram1500
Total posts : 0Carl, the idea of using a simple divide-by circuit is the concept. The schematic you referenced uses that idea. You just need to find a crystal that would divide down to the desired frequency.
For instance a divide by 16 would need a 2.592 mHz crystal for 162 kHz. For 180 kHz a 2.88 mHz crystal would do. The referenced schematic uses a divide by 32 which starts with a higher frequency crystal.
CRYSTEK CRYSTALS is still in business. You can order the frequency needed from them.
I bought a 24 mHz clock chip (complete oscillator in a postage stamp sized can) for a few bucks from Digi-Key. I used an HD74193 TTL chip to divide 24 mHz down to 1500 kHz.
At the 160 to 190 kHz range a VFO or VCO might be stable enough
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0I made a list of the crystal values that would divide down at the available output range, i.e., 16, 32, 64, 128, and the crystal frequencies I listed did not seem to be “standard values.”
I considered the values listed in the Mouser and Jameco catalogs as “standard,” but none of them were right.
Thank you for naming CRYSTEK, I’ll give them a try.
RFB
Total posts : 0Why fuss hunting down specific crystals? Why not put a PLL circuit with an oscillator and generate those fundamentals directly? Save from having to pay for crystals and provides a quick way to change frequencies.
Here is a perfect little PLL kit that I use on many of my TX projects..including one used in my Panaxis FM-10 exciter/transmitter for backup in case the DS8907 chip decides to take a dive, though I have 10 of those suckers on stand by! 😀
This PLL kit has everything on board including the PLL loop filtering and loosely coupled sample path. All it needs is an oscillator, which there is room on the board complete with un-soldered pads in which to permanently install an oscillator circuit.
RFB
mram1500
Total posts : 0Carl, I sent a request for info to Crystek to see what solutions they may offer. I’ll let you know if they reply.
As for “standard values”, Crystek will grind most any frequency you want. At least that’s what they used to do.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0The Deep Voice LW Transmitter Project is in its early stages, so with RFB’s “P.L.L.” suggestion we now have a Second Option for ways of building the prototype. I will add a diagram to the project web page showing both methods.
I will continue on the path of Version No. 1, I like its simplicity, but I may also try Version No. 2 later on.
Others who use these schematics to build their own will appreciate having these two approaches as part of the learning process.
Here is the Deep Voice Project site
http://www.kdxradio.com/deepvoice.html
MORE INFO ON OPTION #1:
X1 : Target Frequency = 162kHz: *16= 2.592mHz; *32= 5.184mHz; *64= 10.368mHz.
Target Frequency = 180kHz: *16= 2.880mHz; *32= 5.760mHz; *64= 11.520mHz.These numbers show the needed crystal values.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Much of today was spent working on a parts list for the Deep Voice long wave transmitter.
In the last post, half-a-month ago, I said I’d update the project page, which I did, but I forgot to upload it. Now tht’s done:
http://www.kdxradio.com/deepvoice.html
Per RFB’s suggestion, the oscillator will be a Datakit PLL Oscillator instead of custom crystals, which will be more versatile in the long run and probably less expensive.
No one has answered me yet whether the U.S. spacing for long wave is 9kHz or 10kHz. Is there a standard? The frequencies usually listed for part 15 use have 9kHz spacing.
mighty1650
Total posts : 0There is no Longwave Standard in the U.S simply because Longwave is not allocated in America.
That being said the 162 Primary and 189 secondary should work just fine.
RFB
Total posts : 0Well I think then the obvious thing to follow would be the most common channel spacing on radios sitting on the store shelves..ie wally worlds and rat shacks.
I was thinking of setting mine up to operate on 167Khz, to mirror the MW 1670 frequency. It’s just too bad I cant transmit on 167Mhz for FM!
Oh well…maybe next time!
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0By using the Datakit PLL Experimenter Board as the oscillator for long wave, it will be possible to choose either spacing.
15.217 assigns 160 to 190 kHz for part 15 at 1-Watt.
My Sangeon, made for the American market, is normalized for 9kHz spacing, with frequencies of 162, 171, 180 & 189kHz.
By pressing the rotary tuning knob I get 1kHz spacing, giving a total of 39 channels within the allowed space.
I cannot set the radio for 10 kHz spacing on LW.
The radio cannot be set to 167kHz.
mighty1650
Total posts : 0Carl Blare hit my point.
Since the US hasn’t allocated Longwave there is only the 9khz spacing standard. Everyone else seems to use 9khz spacing excluding North America.That Being said 167 cannot be used on a digitally tuned radio, unless you change the tuning setting to 1khz steps.
That’s why I suggested a standard set of two easily found Frequencies, that go around the DXd 171. It will be hard enough getting an average Joe to use longwave, it would be even harder to get Joe to change the settings on his radio just because the station liked one set of numbers that weren’t “normal”.That being said, you would have no problem on Analog tuned radios.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0The project link now shows Version 1.0.0 of the Deep Voice long wave transmitter, which depends on ordering custom crystals. The schematic is viewable at this link
http://www.kdxradio.com/deepvoice.html
Today I mapped out the parts list and schematic Version 2.0.0 which uses a PLL Datakit as a programmable oscillator, a more versatile method proposed by RFB. In a few days I’ll get this new version posted on the website.
We are getting close to having our own long wave transmitter design.
RFB
Total posts : 0I would not go that far in saying 9khz is the standard when there is no standard officially declared for LW in the US. With that in mind, and all you have to do is simply take a stroll down the radio isle in wally world, and see how many of those radios with LW are either analog tuned or digital with 1khz spacing. I have yet to see a common radio under 30 bucks with LW and it only tunes in 9khz steps..they all are analog tuning or digital with 1khz.
Now the pricey units either have 1 or 9, or a selector to choose between the spacing. From the consumer point of view, I would spend the 30 bucks to try tuning a band for a station that no one uses..but more than that…it would not be worth the extra cost to listen to static, or only 1 station barely being picked up out of the AC noise and buzz saw junk.
Dedicated DX radio enthusiasts and the general public are two different things all together. I do not intend to just broadcast to radio enthusiasts sporting a room full of radios where only one can be heard at a time. I want to broadcast to the general public..the numbers are far greater. But first they have to be informed about that band and informed that they do not have to spend a huge amount on a radio just to tune in 1 station surrounded by noise and convinced that tuning in regularly is as viable as they tune in to their hip hop or bubble gum FM music stations.
Heck it is difficult building an audience base even for our flea FM’s and AM’s. The LW will not be any easier..in fact I believe it will be even more difficult simply due to the lack of awareness about the band in the public realm.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0The Datakit PLL Programmable Oscillator is now on order.
Now I am reviewing other parts needs for building the Deep Voice LE transmitter, and I have a question about this simulated final stage from radio8z
C2 is .039uF, and C6 is 39nF. In actual fact, isn’t that really one and the same value? (which can be stated either way?)
RFB
Total posts : 0Some modification required, but can be used to up-convert the LW signal to be received by an AM radio on 1000Khz or whatever.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0It also looks like the converter circuit could make 13.560mHz pop over to the AM band.
Nice idea.
RFB
Total posts : 0Yep. I posted the links over in the 13.560 thread too!
I was going over our discussions on building converters and remembered that little gem.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Schematic Version 2.0.0 is now on the Deep Voice Long Wave page showing the version with RFB’s PLL Datalink Oscillator, which has a keyboard for changing frequency to virtually ANY frequency!
http://www.kdxradio.com/deepvoice.html
I’ve begun ordering the parts and will be building the first prototype of this new device.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0The Datalink PLL kit arrived and after studying the documentation I see that it will not be a simple build and start project for long wave use.
The paper says it is not a complete kit. One must add or change parts as needed for a desired purpose. For example, it comes with a 10kHz crystal, but the objective frequencies for this design will require a 9kHz crystal, easy enough to solve. But there’s more to it than that and as time goes on I’ll be consulting with RFB who already has experience with the device and hopefully will be able to describe exactly what to do next.
Because of being set back into a vague zone for the time being, I’m going to revive plans to build the other version, 1.0.0, which simply needs particular crystals. It may prove to be easier, but we shall see.
In the end I hope to have both versions running.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0The Datalink PLL kit arrived and after studying the documentation I see that it will not be a simple build and start project for long wave use.
The paper says it is not a complete kit. One must add or change parts as needed for a desired purpose. For example, it comes with a 10kHz crystal, but the objective frequencies for this design will require a 9kHz crystal, easy enough to solve. But there’s more to it than that and as time goes on I’ll be consulting with RFB who already has experience with the device and hopefully will be able to describe exactly what to do next.
Because of being set back into a vague zone for the time being, I’m going to revive plans to build the other version, 1.0.0, which simply needs particular crystals. It may prove to be easier, but we shall see.
In the end I hope to have both versions running.
RFB
Total posts : 0Simply punch in 000016, the yellow LED flashes indicating it took the number. Then use the UP key to step up 1Khz steps to 162. For 170 punch in 000017.
The on board PLL filtering is adequate for controlling a plain ol oscillator. Since modulation takes place outside of the PLL and oscillator itself, there is no reason to do any changing to the PLL sensing and loop paths or the PLL crystal.
Only thing necessary to add to the PLL board is an oscillator capable of generating the frequencies needed here…ie 162Khz and 170khz.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Where is that oscillator going to come from? The other design I posted has an oscillator, but then why would the PLL thing be needed?
RFB
Total posts : 0“Where is that oscillator going to come from? The other design I posted has an oscillator, but then why would the PLL thing be needed?”
Weeelllll the oscillator can come from the one you already have in V1.0 of that unit.
And the reason for the PLL….hrmmm…well now that one will require a bit of simple “OR” function logic to solve for x.
You can go with V1.0 and mess with finding specific crystals which most likely will have to be special cut…equals higher cost….”OR”
…use the PLL to control the oscillator that would otherwise be controlled by the crystal. !!!!!!!!
Neat how that fuzzy logic works eh?! 😀
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0I am seeing spirals in my eyes because of the confusion now being experienced as more details are added to what I thought was said back when it seemed like I was told there was no need for the original V 1.0 oscillator by simply using the PLL thing.
But that’s not what I guess was said when I thought the other thing was being said, because what you meant was that those rare crystals weren’t needed…….
Does it make sense now?
RFB
Total posts : 0“But that’s not what I guess was said when I thought the other thing was being said, because what you meant was that those rare crystals weren’t needed”
What was said was there was no need for the crystals.
Nothing was ever said that the v1’s oscillator would be omitted. Not by me anyway. Nor have I ever said the current oscillator couldn’t be the oscillator that is needed for the PLL unit.
Did I just cause more confusion? LOL!!!
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0The problem with being smart is that the rest of us, who also think we are smart, think we know what a smarter person is talking about, only to find out that we don’t know what we’re talking about, even though you knew what you were talking about when we thought we knew.
That explains it.
Maybe that’s why the government is opening confusion centers all over the country.
RFB
Total posts : 0Just sub out the crystal with an LC circuit and a varactor diode. The manual that came with the PLL board has examples of oscillators for reference.
Once its ready, set the oscillator to free run at or near 180khz. Then fire up the PLL, punch in the numbers, and it should lock to the frequency entered.
I have found that setting the oscillator’s free run state frequency above the frequencies I want to use, the PLL locks the oscillator very quickly and prevents motor-boating, which can happen if the oscillator is running too far away from the intended frequencies you want to work with.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0I just scrolled through the many interesting comments from everybody on this long wave thread, and would like to roundup a few ideas….
This thread has morphed into a part 15 long wave transmitter design and building project under the name “Deep Voice”
The frequency range allowed per 15.217 is 160 to 190kHz.
The specific frequencies of a typical long wave digital radio are 162, 171, 180 and 189kHz, which are 9kHz apart, based on the European standard, where long wave is used for broadcasting.
The U.S. has not set a spacing standard for long wave, therefore any spacing choice is available for experimentation.
The Crow has proposed primary frequency: 162kHz and secondary frequency: 180kHz for this project, and of those, 180kHz is in line with either the 9kHz normal receiver settings or a 10kHz approach.
Version 1.0.0 utilizes a crystal driven oscillator with a multiplier circuit so that the crystal can be a higher value than the base operating frequency.
RFB has proposed use of a PLL circuit in place of a crystal, but this will not work with the multiplier chip used in V 1.0.0, and requires a different oscillator design.
There are sample oscillators shown in the lit for the PLL board, but those are specified as operating in the near FM VHF range and may not be appropriate for LW use.
The use of the PLL requires selection of a suitable varactor diode, but the lit does not address LW and we are in the dark as to how to make this choice.
Therefore I am requesting from RFB or other project participant a detailed sketch of a proposed LW oscillator/varactor diode for use with the PLL.
Also, the PLL is supplied for 10M-crystal operation, which will not allow 9kHz use, thus the question, should we use a 9M crystal?
RFB
Total posts : 0“Version 1.0.0 utilizes a crystal driven oscillator with a multiplier circuit so that the crystal can be a higher value than the base operating frequency.”
BZZZZTT!! The V1 does NOT use a frequency multiplier, it uses a divider IC taking the higher crystal frequency and dividing it down to the operating frequency.
“RFB has proposed use of a PLL circuit in place of a crystal, but this will not work with the multiplier chip used in V 1.0.0, and requires a different oscillator design.”
Which is what I have been saying all along..the PLL needs an oscillator. The V1 has no oscillator..never did. Thus an oscillator will have to be built. I’m surprised you did not catch this 2 pages back. Tests come in many different forms!
“There are sample oscillators shown in the lit for the PLL board, but those are specified as operating in the near FM VHF range and may not be appropriate for LW use.”
Tell me something…do you always throw in the towel so quickly when running into a wee problem?
Simply build an oscillator for the frequency range…those within the manual are good “REFERENCE” designs. Naturally component values will be different for the frequency range of oscillation, but just because those reference schematics of oscillators mostly deal with VHF does NOT mean the PLL board is useless for this LW project.
How do I know..because right now at this very moment my LW TX is running from this exact PLL board as I type this. And it covers the entire band we are interested in, and above it and below it with no issues at all.
“The use of the PLL requires selection of a suitable varactor diode, but the lit does not address LW and we are in the dark as to how to make this choice.”
The choice of varactor diode is determined by the circuit specifics…ie the oscillator’s LC network parameters. Part of designing electronic circuits is to calculate component values necessary to make the circuit design work. But things can be even more simpler than that. Got a HF circuit handbook handy? Well then reference to those oscillators with varactors and work from there. Chances are the varactors used for HF work will do just fine for our LW oscillator. Any tolerances too far out of range can be compensated with the LC circuit tank…a larger coil…a heavier capacitor…or a tweak or two of an inductor coil if used.
“Also, the PLL is supplied for 10M-crystal operation, which will not allow 9kHz use, thus the question, should we use a 9M crystal?”
Why would you need a 9Mhz crystal for? The PLL’s 10Mhz crystal will do everything needed for this project. As I posted before, you punch in 000016 for 160Khz, then use the up button to step to 162Khz…simple. For 180, simply punch in 000018 and bada bing. Why muck with a perfectly good working PLL already set up to do what we need it to do for the project? Just more added work that is unnecessary.
The PLL crystal has nothing to do with what our oscillator will do, nor does it do anything about frequency selection when punched in on the keyboard. The crystal is the PLL’s reference to lock the oscillator to and operate the clock internal to the PLL chip. Replacing it with a 9Mhz crystal will have no effect on selecting the frequency via the keypad. You merely changed the PLL IC’s clock frequency and reference frequency which is used to match the phase of the oscillator frequency..thus it locks. In other words, a 9Mhz crystal wont give you 9Khz channel spacing from the PLL OR oscillator. What gives you channel spacing is what frequency you punch in into the keypad!
One step at a time and cross the bridges one at a time will lead to project completion and happy LW broadcasters.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Dear RFB:
You are a good college teacher, but you are no grade school teacher.
Metaphorically, you are telling me, “Learn algebra.”
And here I am with a pencil, paper, and a tongue hanging out.
“Pick a varactor diode for the frequency range.” Oh, that’ll be easy. Here’s one on the floor.
You have an oscillator and varactor already in operation. They must be proprietary information, it hasn’t been sent over in the form of a diagram.
“Just set it on the keyboard.” What is the setting for 162kHz?
I can’t throw in the towel. I don’t have a towel.
RFB
Total posts : 0Well I have been told once I should have been a professor of electronic and electrical engineering…but I like to get my hands dirty!
I will draw up the schematic with part values/numbers and when completed, post a link within this thread for the PLL oscillator.
Be patient…at the moment I am dealing with some terrible developments and news just learned regarding a family member.
RFB
RFB
Total posts : 0There has been a loss. I will be out of pocket for some time..not sure how long. Station is on full auto pilot set to also download the newest episodes of the programs it airs and will place them into the daily lineups, but will be monitored via remote pc software.
Until then…hold the fort.
RFB
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0RFB, you have my best wishes.
Whatever it is, I’m very sorry for the news – and we will
all be thinking of you.Carl, I will probably have some comments for you,
as soon as I get my act together and reread some
of your posts.Best Wishes,
Bruce, DOGRADIO STUDIO 2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Bruce, with your love of part 15 and radio, and now RFB, with so many creative ideas and always a solution or answer for whatever we ask about, it is saddening to see troubles come into the picture.
Loss and health are time stealers and I hope the resolutions and cures come in a very short time.
We’ll keep the conversation going while we wait for your return.
RFB
Total posts : 0Just checking in via wi-fi and laptop across free wi-fi access at hotel and through remote pc to machines back home.
Wife’s mom passed yesterday. We are about to get back on the road…long way to Georgia from Wyoming.
Will check in again at earliest chance.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0The death of a family member comes in many forms. The worst are sudden and unexpected. Abrupt losses are crippling and shocking.
Less traumatic but still dread is the expected loss, as with someone who has been expected to go because of age or health.
One thing is always true of a loss. We all and always stop what we’re doing and gather for the goodbye memorial. We, the survivors, pool all our thoughts and memories about the departed.
RFB, I extend to your wife my regrets over the loss of her good mother.
The evolution of our species has put all its refinement into the beginning of life and done very little to improve the end of life.
Religions manage to create little distraction ceremonies to help keep our mind off of the sorrow.
Thanks for checking in along the way.
RFB
Total posts : 0Checking in again, at a truck stop along I-20 near Jackson Mississippi. Having to pace our travel to stay ahead of the recent front moving out of the north through central US and the one ahead of us. So far no problems. Should arrive at destination this evening. Accounting for time zone difference, should make destination around 10 or 11pm EST.
Wife appreciates kind words. Will check in again at hotel in Georgia.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Dear RFB:
I respect, admire, and appreciate you for staying in contact during your heavy side-trip away from the normal part of everyday life. And with weather fronts taunting you on several sides.
There is a heavy reality when we gather to say goodbye to someone who is already gone. No matter how good some parts of life are, there is always the sadness that arrives on a secret schedule that writes our life.
We will try to keep the everyday part of the world going while you are on your goodbye trip.
RFB
Total posts : 0We arrived in Georgia a bit ahead of schedule. Checked in at hotel and settling in for the rest of the evening. Wife is fast asleep and I am just about to pass out myself. One thing I like about CB radio and trucker convoys…just like Smokey and the Bandit slipping in between rigs, blocking head wind and smooth sailing. Sure made the time pass quickly.
Tomorrow is the “heavy” day, bright and early. Will be making the funeral arrangements then and all that other stuff. Gonna check out a few more threads and then zzz it for the rest of the night.
We appreciate all the condolences and kind words. Wife sends her thanks and love.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Sleep is an underrated bonus during the experience of life. Sleep, while you believe you are passed out, actually puts the brain to work solving puzzles, including the biggest puzzle of all, that of death.
Every time you wake up from sleep you are healthier than prior to sleep.
People who try to avoid sleeping are hurting themselves.
Trust sleep.
RFB
Total posts : 0All arrangements made, service set for 10 am Friday. Wife is doing ok and I am still tired from the long drive. The plan is to head back to Casper on Sunday…baring any severe weather getting in the way.
We did find out that her mother passed away in her sleep and did not have to endure any suffering.
Wife says thank you again for the kind words. I do too.
RFB
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0Give our best wishes to your Wife, too.
This is not easy stuff.
Have a safe stay and journey, and when you get back –
when you are ready – we can talk about radio again.Best Wishes,
Bruce, DOGRADIO STUDIO 2
RFB
Total posts : 0The services went well, no issues with weather or other delays. She is now at peace and in a better place.
Wife is doing ok as can be expected under the circumstances. Her sister however is not doing so well emotionally. My wife is her sister’s moral support. I think her sister will be ok. She may return to Wyoming with us because I think if she stays in Georgia, the memory thing will be too much for her.
Our return trip will begin Saturday evening..weather permitting. I hope we can get back as quick as the trip was coming to Georgia. But I think we will take our time and perhaps stop at a couple places just to help the wife and her sister if she comes along. Perhaps a view from a mountain or lake, anything with nature might work. Nature has that magical way of relieving stresses.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Wyoming and Georgia are way apart in weather zones and maybe time zones and long ago in the south north conflict.
Your wife’s sister is fortunate to have you both to make sure she’s o.k. and your wife is lucky to have a sister who needs looking after, because that will occupy attention and keep everyone from thinking about the dreary things.
Agreed that nature has a cure.
RFB
Total posts : 0The ancient societies lived by nature and planned around nature’s ways. It has a resonance that does work with our own natural resonances (auras). When in sync, we feel at ease, calm and enlightened.
There is an experiment everyone can do to test this.
Simply walk into a consumer electronics store that has a bunch of televisions and stereos turned on. Or go into a building with tons of lighting and electrical wiring. You will feel the effects from the EM fields produced by these things, all interrupting the natural resonances our bodies produce. Walk out of those places and you begin to feel normal again.
Go from the clustered EM fields of a city to a quiet, unpopulated area like a forest or wide open field and feel the same cleansing effect away from all the EM fields.
Nature at its best.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Absolutely, RFB.
I notice this also when there’s a lengthy power outage. The entire sense of consciousness and thought has a much more comfortable feel.
In fact, some of us can hear “the super hetrodyne,” an ultra high pitched squeal similar to the sound of a flyback-transformer in an NTSC TV set. It is an unpleasant clash combined of ALL the RF signals and interferences all-at-once.
I know a singer who can “hear radar,” and this phenomenon has been observed in research.
Trouble is, some of us LOVE electricity and absolutely need our RF fix everyday.
RFB
Total posts : 0We are preparing to head back to Wyoming. We’re leaving a bit earlier than planned to avoid any weather issues. In about an hour we will be on the highway heading back.
I plan to take the same route back since it was faster. Got the CB fired up, ready to join up in a trucker convoy and head em on home.
Will check in at our first major stop.
Once again I and my wife appreciate all the kind words over the last few days. It has been difficult I will admit. But life must go on and as long as we remember the good times with my wife’s mother, she will live on in our memories.
RFB
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0I wish you and your wife a safe journey home.
Best Wishes,
Bruce, DOGRADIO STUDIO 2P.S. Are the trucker dudes still
using channel 19?
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0The tool shed here is two blocks from an interstate highway, so tonight I’ll scan the CB frequencies on my Sangeon which goes way up to 29.999mHz.
A friend gave me his old truck CB which I will hook up near the computer and run to a chimney antenna so I can talk to unknown people “out there.”
Talking on CB is a local form of HAM.
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0Carl, I can’t remember. Does
your Sangean have a BFO for
listening to SSB and morse code?
I know during one of the last
Low Power Hours you were trying
to hear one of our friends from
the board, who is also a ham. If
you were listening with the Sangean,
I guess it doesn’t have a BFO.Although I have a great love for some
old CB radios, I haven’t been on there
for a long time.I can tell you the little bit I know.
Listening there now and then the last
few years, most of the channels have
been empty here. However, I have not
listened much.There is a fringe section of society that
still exists on CB. These people run very
high power and do weird things. I’m figuring
you probably know what I mean.The F-skip conditions are getting better in this
solar cycle. You may hear skip. If it happens,
I think it will probably be better in the
Spring. During the summer – sporadic E skip will
occur.Although I don’t agree with the idea of pirate radio,
there is an interesting frequency to listen to, I
believe. I think it is 27.555 MHz. I think this
is sort of an international unlicensed “Freeband”
frequency. You may hear a lot of activity there,
but it is SSB I think. So you would need to have
the ability of receive that – i.e. – a radio with
a BFO.I think the truckers still hang out on channel 19,
and there may be another trucker channel, as well.Let us know what you find. But be careful.
Like I said, there is a fringe section of
society on there that does strange things.I an very fond of the 10 meter ham band, which
is next door from 28.0 to 29.7 MHz. I have worked
all over the world with small antennas and low
power when the conditions have been right. There
are many ten meter beacons that run Morse Code all
over the world. But again, you would have to
have a BFO. And the American Radio Relay League
transmits too with their station W1AW.I’ll listen in that general area of the spectrum,
too. By the way – there are still a very few
radio stations in the U.S. that are using the
25 MHz band for remotes. In other words, stations
that do traffic reports for instance, send out
a transmission on usually a fixed VHF or UHF channel.
So, the guy in the helicopter listens to say 161.???
or 454.??? and knows when to give the traffic report.
This is a simulcast of what the station’s main
channel is running. Some engineers leave the transmitters
on all the time. There are a very few stations that
are STILL using the 25 MHz band. So chief engineers
that are running those operations, are probably hams
that have been involved with the stations for decades.
They probably leave those 25 MHz transmitters on to
see if anyone out there is hearing them. A couple of
solar cycles ago, I listened to a Seattle AM station
on 25 MHz during a big part of a solar cycle peak.
That 25 MHz signal was on so much, I considered it to
be a pest. It would go away after local darkness in
Connecticut, when the maximum usable frequency dropped
below 25 MHz.Local ham radio activity has, unfortunately, dropped way
off, too. There are lots a repeaters on 2 meters, etc,
but they are quieter than several decades ago.I was very fond of a simplex frequency – 146.52, which
is for local communications without a repeater. A year
of so ago, I had a vintage 2 meter FM ham base rig on there
with a friend. The radio is from 1972. It’s down in
the cellar now, because the mike broke. It’s a low
priority, but it’s a beautiful radio, and I would love
to get it back on the air.Anyway, let us know what you find, and I will look, too.
Who knows – you may get some material for The Low Power
Hour. And seriously, watch out for the fringe – or
what I guess I would call the crazy dudes on CB. Seriously.Good luck,
Bruce, DOGRADIO STUDIO 2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Well Bruce, minus the advantage of BFO, I went a-scanning at 6:10 PM CST starting at 20mHz.
A few carriers … 20.990, 24.800, 27.900, 28.000 & 29.450;
A tone, approx. 1.5kHz, at 22.090;
Buzz Tone at 22.800;
KDX SW 2nd harmonic sounding muffled and warbled at 27.120;
Data at 28.500.
No AM and no voices.
Last frequency scanned: 29,999.
mram1500
Total posts : 0Check with the local Amateur Radio Club if you have one. They may run a 10 meter NET.
Except for local stations the band is usually dead between sunset and sunrise.
RFB
Total posts : 0We are at a truck stop just outside of Cheyenne, taking a much needed “power nap”. We should make the finish line in 3 hours.
The truckers still use Ch 19 for initial contacts and “smokey” reporting. I found out that many of them, particularly those in convoys will often use Ch 25 or Ch 35 for inter-convoy communications.
Very little base station activity. None of the typical “chit chat” that used to be abundant on the CB channels anymore. These days its done via twitfacetube and text messaging. Only the dedicated die hard groups will be found working skip and rarely talking to someone across their own town.
And because of the new forms of instant communication affecting things like CB, it is a reasonable conclusion that HAM is also affected…considering the costs involved and no license needed or room full of expensive radio gear taking up space or relying on a network of repeater systems.
The dedicated ones…yes there is still activity from them in both CB and HAM, but as noted earlier, the numbers are decreasing. When the dedicated ones pass on, those activities in these bands will further decrease as new technologies and new methods of communication are constantly being developed and introduced.
The neat thing though is I also discovered there were a surprising number of the truckers in convoys or going it alone, also have on board a 10 meter rig or even a mobile HF rig and a HAM license. Their “shack on wheels” so to speak, some which use those radios to maintain contact with home base where their better half or other family member is also a HAM.
It’s all not going to completely die out, but we will see the numbers decrease steadily simply because of the cheaper and more readily available forms of communication with a device that simply slips into your shirt pocket.
Now if the HAM’s can develop a radio like that of the size of a cell phone, and develop a network like that of a cell phone, it might just re-peak the interest in the newer generations and sign up to become licensed HAM’s. But as long as these other forms of communication are out there which do not require any license or knowledge of radio theory or electronics…CB and HAM have a very long up hill battle ahead.
We are about to depart for the final leg of the trip.
RFB
mram1500
Total posts : 0Several years ago when I was very active on 2 meters, there was a repeater network that covered Ohio, PA, Mich, Ill, In, Ky, Tn and perhaps a little more.
We left Cuyahoga Falls for vacation in Kentucky and I was able to maintain communication back to home base using a hand held portable. The portable has a High (2 watt) and Low (100 mw) power setting so we’re not talking much power here.
The antenna was a “rubber duck”.
And yes, the Hams do have portables the size of a pack of Lucky Strikes.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Remembering from news reports how cell phones and power going out during emergencies suddenly makes HAM radio the difference between staying in contact or being lost in the stone age.
We should have generators and HAM, or at least CB, for those “just in case” situations.
RFB
Total posts : 0We made it! Good thing too..another snow front moving through Wy. from the NW.
“And yes, the Hams do have portables the size of a pack of Lucky Strikes.”
True..but you still need a HAM license. The average joe and jane wont’ bother with the routines…or are even aware of them..to get that license to use that Lucky Strike sized HAM version of their cell phones when all they simply have to do is purchase one, activate it and start dialing or text messaging.
But people like us who are into the details and routines of licensing etc will be the ones to carry it on to the next generations..if we can overcome the flood of the alternatives readily available to them.
Gonna be a hard sales pitch. I have already encountered that when introducing youngsters at the ages of 10 to HAM radio…then they say “just a minute” while answering their text message.
Anyway we are back and made it before the storm..though I think the storm will be a minor flake here and there and nothing as serious as whats going on further up north.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0The snow will be a drop in the bucket compared to what you and your wife have just been through.
So neat to have you stay in touch the whole way.
As promised we kept the light on for you.
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0RFB – glad you’re back. Hope you and
your wife can get some rest. You sure
deserve it after that trip. I guess I’ll
take the battery operated candle out of
the window now.I took a listen from 26 to 30 MHz just
now, about 9:40 AM local EST.A lot of Spanish on 26.715 again. Above
that into the CB channels, some regular
local AM conversations (I’m surprised there
is more than I thought there would be.)
On roughly 27.025 (channel 4?, not sure)
lots of AM signals on top of each other.
Lots of mention of Jamaica, and the dialect
from one of the operators sounded like that’s
where he was. But the operating tactics of
the stations were so disorganized, I never
could get a real confirmation where anyone was.Between 27.5 and 28 MHz, I heard SSB signals.
The operators of those stations acted like hams,
even though they were not. I clearly heard
Venice, Italy and Cambridge in the U.K. These
guys were more organized in their operating than
some dudes below 27 MHz. There was no doubt in
my mind as to their locations. The signals were
about S9. My 100 foot wire probably is not the
best for this, but it does work.Getting up into the 10 meter ham band at 28 MHz,
I was surprised to hear Morse code conversations
in the lower part of the band! Quite a few, in
fact!Then I got up above 28.300, and heard an unknown
U.S. station talking to Sweden. No doubt there.
This was SSB. The U.S. station commented that
10 meters had been great in the fall, but then
after November it was hardly ever open for DX.
He was glad to hear it active this morning.
He said the propagation figures from WWV prompted
him to go up and call CQ on 10 meters. There’s an
old saying about 10 meters in the ham radio world.
It’s basically this; Ten meters might be open all over
the world. But if everybody is listening and nobody
tries to call another station – nobody will ever know
that the band is actually open.I love ten meters. I have a couple of ham radio rigs
that transmit there, but I have been having trouble
with the antenna I put up for 10. Something is wrong.
I guess I’ll have to get back on working on it.This solar cycle is not as good as some cycles where
the F2 layer maximum usable frequency has gotten up past 50
MHz. I remember in the fall of 1982 hearing a code
station from California slamming into my station at
60 dB over S9 on 50 MHz (6 meters.) For weeks and
weeks, I heard some kind of sporting event on 46 MHz
in the afternoons, for hours on end. Even today,
I have no idea where it was from.And if the MUF ever gets up to 60 or 70 MHz,
that’s when the TV DXers get involved. I don’t
think we’ll get that in this cycle, though.
However, low band TV channels and some FM radio
stations have gotten across the Atlantic in
the summers of some recent years, via multihop
sporadic E skip. There are some amazing recordings
on YouTube. All you have to do is type in something
like FM DX reception, or TV DX, or something like that.
There is a guy in Portugal who has gotten TV DX on
channel 2 from the U.S. and parts of South America.
And some guy in Ireland with a gigantic FM receiving
array heard some upper east coast U.S. FM stations a couple
of years ago. (E skip.) And I THINK a few years ago, a channel
2 in Florida was received in Hawaii via F skip, but
I don’t remember the details.Exciting stuff.
Bruce, DOGRADIO STYDIO 2
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0At 11:00 AM EST ham radio station
EB1BSV was heard by me. He was
in the 10 meter FM allocation on
29.600 MHz. Spain, I think.Very clear. Then he faded away. He
was calling CQm but nobody answered him,
that I could hear. I wish I could have
called him from here in Hartford, Connecticut.I guess if there is any more discussion on
this we’ll have to move it to another thread.
This thread has been mainly about longwave
up to this point.Bruce, DOGRADIO STUDIO 2
MICRO1700
Total posts : 025.950 MHz. Narrowband FM signal. Sounds like an
AM broadcast station remote feeder.It just gave the time as 7:25 AM,
four hours behind me.The frequency list on the internet says
it’s probably the feed from KIRO (710kHz)
in Seattle, WA. And that makes sense.If I get a positive ID, I’ll mention it here.
Bruce, DOGRADIO STUDIO 2
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0It was KOA Denver, CO. I must have
been wrong about the time announcement
that I heard. (KOA is 50,000W on 850 kHz.)Bruce, DOGRADIO STUDIO 2
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0XE1RCS beacon in Mexico City, Mexico, heard
here weakly, but no problem copying the Morse Code.Freq. is 28.182 MHz. I looked it up and the transmit
power is 8 watts. It is weak but stable. The antenna
is on a 50 foot tower. I’m assuming that the antenna
is a vertical.OK. I guess I’ve covered this whole thing enough.
If I find anything interesting after this, I will
start a different thread. I haven’t listened any
higher than 30 MHz, but 30 to 50 MHz used to be
very busy. I wonder how it is now? I will
definitely create a new thread if I have more stuff
on this.Thanks if you lasted this long.
Bruce, DOGRADIO STUDIO 2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0After a third scan from 20 mHz to 30 mHz at different times of the day there was nothing to hear, so I switched up to the 2-meter band and have an ongoing conversation about antennas and grounding.
One guy was thinking of ways of having an antenna in his subdivision, where the antenna limit is 4-feet. He talked about a birdhouse pole, but figured his laying down ground radials would catch the watchful eye of gestapo spies. He mentioned the thought of having a crank-up tower after dark, which could be collapsed and hidden in a tool shed during the day.
Frequency 145.325
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0I’ve thought of things like that at our house.
Considering the fact that the people next door
don’t like my two wires going out to the trees.But what really made them crazy was my Part 15
AM outside transmitting antenna, which is down now.The radiator was a 3 meter stick starting at the
ground. But it had a gigantic top hat on there.
(This is coming up on 3 years ago, I guess.)So I put a plastic 10 foot PVC pole pointed up on top of the 3 meter
stick. Then I ran nonconductive “guy wires” from
the top of the plastic pole (20 feet up) down to
the sides of the top hat.If you can picture this thing… My wife it looked like a boat
about to set sail, except there was no sail.The guys next door went crazy about that one. But I didn’t
even find out until about a year after I took it down.You know, if you bring your radio outside some time, you
might hear some of this 25 to 30 MHz stuff, you know – if you feel like
doing that.Best Wishes,
Bruce, DOGRADIO STUDIO 2
RFB
Total posts : 0Both me and the wife deeply appreciate the leaving of the light on for us. But please be patient for those replacement batteries! 😀
Looks like some good DX’ing reports going on. I will have to fire up the Motorola and see if the blanket of snow will help pull in some of these stations being heard.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Tonight just after 11 PM CST I did a scan of the long wave dial, which was set on the default setting of 9kHz, and on 216kHz I detected what sounded like splash-over from the edge of an amplitude modulated signal.
The next slot going up was 225kHz, where a beacon is audible.
Using a trick taught me by a part15.us member, I pushed the tuning control and switched to 1kHz stepping mode.
On a band of seven 1kHz channels I heard a radio station, spread from 217 to 223kHz, with the center of the signal at 220kHz. Right at that time the station identified itself as KMOX, a local 50kW station at 1120kHz AM.
I bet somebody has a low power transmitter and is re-airing their favorite station.
What else could it be?
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0At 8:50 PM local EST I fired up the
ICOM R-70 in the listening shack, and
put the 100 foot long wire onto it.I went from 26 to 30 MHz. There were
a lot of guys talking in Spanish on
26.715 MHz, which is several hundred
KCs below CB channel one, I think. So
they were clearly illegal, or “freebanders,’
I guess you could say.CB channel 14, 27.125 MHz was active with
a couple of guys talking about antennas,
towers, and such. The guy I was hearing best
was in Massachusetts, and he had a rotatable
CB beam antenna. His signal was good, about
S9. He turned his antenna a little, and his
signal strength went down a bit. So this guy
is one of those dedicated “Still On CB,” persons.
He had a tower of some kind, and a 3 or 4 element
CB beam. He knew a lot technically. I think he
might have also been a ham. I am in Hartford, so
my guess is he was about 20 miles away.Then I heard some bits and pieces of trucker conversation
on 27.185, which I believe is CB channel 19. Not too
much there. But it might be fun to park the R-70 there,
and see what comes by. I am near the highway.To Carl – you may want to run some kind of wire out to
a tree to hear some of this stuff. I wouldn’t take much.
You could run the wire under a window sill and shut the
screen and the window. I don’t know the best way to hook
it up to a portable like the Sangean. There may be more
signal than the radio can handle. If your Transoceanic is
a tube radio, it would not care, I imagine.I have had antennas that were so simple, that I would just
unhook them at the house, roll them up, and place the roll
of wire next to the tree they were attached to. (This is
for times of thunderstorms, that sort of thing.)However, there ARE MANY BETTER WAYS to do this. Because of
terrain, I have never had a lightning strike near here
in 21 years of living in this house. You other guys
know a lot more about that. And hooking the antenna
up to a radio may require something extra that somebody
can suggest.But I do think if you want to hear some of this stuff –
put something outside. There are active HF receiving
antennas that are low key (usually a small whip antenna)
and they cover the whole HF spectrum. That might be a
solution. It all depends on what you really feel like
doing, I guess. That’s really the bottom line.By the way – I heard nothing on the ten meter ham band –
28.0 to 29.7. But as one of the members here said:
you really only hear signals on ten during daylight
hours.I haven’t tuned in the CB range for YEARS. It’s funny –
my original 1966 Space Patrol CB walkie talkie was on channel
14 – the same channel I was listening to tonight.For what it’s worth.
Best Wishes,
Bruce, DOGRADIO STUDIO 2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0The Zenith Transoceanic only goes up to 22.4mHz, and for some reason skips over the 13.560mHz spot, so there’s little use for the interests I have.
The Sangean DOES have an antenna input, so the outdoor antenna is doable.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Yesterday I was on the phone with International Crystal Manufacturing and was all set to order crystals for the LowFER transmitter oscillator schematic by Lyle Kohler, k0lr, as linked here
http://www.nutstreet.net/k0lr/lftx.htm
Trouble is, that link is gone.The guy at ICM asked “what capacitance?” and looking at my printout pf Lyle’s transmitter, there is no mention of the capacitance or any other properties of the crystal, except that it is divide-down by 16, 32, 64 or 128.
ICM told me the crystals in the 4M to 20M range are most economical.
So the LowFER crystals are on hold while I study crystals so as to become conversant with “their capacitance” and how to estimate the need.
By the way, who first submitted that link by Mr. Kohler?
RFB
Total posts : 0Well if the crystal is running an oscillator within the divider chip or another IC, look up that chip’s spec sheet and get the data from there, or simply give ICM the chip number and they can determine what capacitance the crystal needs to be.
RFB
mighty1650
Total posts : 0actually KMOX on 220 would just be an image of some kind.
I get the same thing with 1080 on 180.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Let’s talk about the “image” phenomenon, which has been mentioned frequently in the threads.
Is there a single explanation for these images?
Or are there different situations that can generate images.
Here’s an example of an image that I call a phantom, it is a strong audio signal from 850kHz AM being projected at 800kHz. My theory for this particular situation is “front-end overload” of the receiver, because this 5kW station is very nearby.
Another circumstance that I’ve mentioned is hearing a station from 1430kHz way down on 530kHz, which seemed to be gone during a period when an Illionois traffic TIS station was on 530.
RFB
Total posts : 0Image signals are usually caused by intermod of the IF frequency, which is either 450 or 455 Khz for in-band image reception.
For the out of band image reception, it’s usually just a harmonic your picking up off the high powered signal.
I pick up KTWO AM 1030’s signal at 1230 and 630 during the day when they run the omni pattern. At night when they switch to the clover leaf type patter, both image signals disappear.
KTWO AM 1030 is a clear channel 50Kw station, both day and night. At night they just change the pattern. Two towers located south of the city.
RFB
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0When I was growing up, we (my family and I) had a local
station right in town on 1550 kHz AM. And of course, when
the radio was tuned to 640 AM, we would also get the
1550 signal there. Later on, the transmitter was
moved farther away, and that problem didn’t
exist anymore.i just tried to write a huge explanation of how
superhet radios work, and why that sort of thing happens.
I was very proud of myself. But then, after writing for a long time,
I started changing words and sentences. Then I
started getting confused. So I scrapped the whole
thing. (I tend to be pretty wordy, anyway.)When it comes right down to it, though, most radios
are not perfect. Zillions of radios have had the same
basic circuit design for decades and decades. And they
will tend to pick up the desired signal really well. Then,
if things work out “right,” they will tend to get another
frequency, too. With the same dial setting – which is the
image signal.But hopefully, only if that image signal is very strong. There is
an electronic explanation for this. And for zillions of radios –
the mathematical relationship between the desired signal
and the image is pretty much the same.Of course, radios with improved (and more complicated)
circuitry do not have THIS kind of image trouble.But they have other problems.
There is a problem with some of my Long Wave radios.
I have quite a few radios that tune the Long Wave range.
Some of the low end models tend to hear my local
50,000 watt flamethrower “down in the LW basement.” The big
local flamethrower is WTIC AM 1080. And it is only 3 miles away.
For some reason, the low end LW radios get WTIC on 180 kHz.And I do not know why this is.
Best Wishes,
Bruce, DOGRADIO STUDIO 2P.S. I just looked back up at some of the comments.
i saw that Mr. Crow also has a local AM 1080. And
he also gets that station on 180. Interesting coincidence.
mighty1650
Total posts : 0In addition Bruce,
WTIC (your 1080) and KRLD(my 1080)
are owned by the Same Company (CBS Radio)
They also have similar formats
(WTIC – News/Talk)(KRLD – NewsRadio)
They also have the same directional pattern.
KRLD Aims away from WTIC, and WTIC aims away from KRLD.
They also signed on within a year of Eachother.
WTIC 1925 KRLD 1926
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0I have heard KRLD here in Connecticut when
WTIC has been off. I think that’s really neat.I understand that the chief engineer of KRLD
and the chief engineer of WTIC are good friends!
At least that went by on the local broadcast rumor
mill a while back.I heard a DX test years ago, where WTIC shut down
so DXers here could hear KRLD. Then after that
KRLD shut down so folks out your way could log WTIC.You have to love that radio stuff.
Best Wishes,
Bruce, DOGRADIO STUDIO 2
Seankw40
Total posts : 0I have been reading your post. I have a sageon ATS803A Receiver.
It is dual conversion and has AM ,CW,LS ,USb
Anyways radio really works well on the 160-190Khz range. You can even put
a external antenna on it if you really want a big antenna out side.i have been making these transmitters since I was 9 years old,but really
could never find anyone interested in this band till now.I use to broadcast music over this band and when I was about 15 years of
age I actually picked up someone broadcasting weather reports.I still love this band. I heard someone mention the capacitance on the
crystals. That does not really matter on the type of transmitter you are
talking about. I use to due that with my transmitters. They use a divider
circuit..I use to use one that divided by 10.So a 1600Khz or 1.6 mhz crystal put you right at 160 Khz.
Alot of ham that work the 160 meter band had crystal the work in the 1.8Mhz
band and if you divided them down they would end up around 180Khz to 190Khz.
Right in the band we want.Anyways I would need to look at what chip divide by 10, but I think it
was a TTL chip called the 7490 chip if I am wrong please clorrect me.Here a site that explains how that chip works. Anyways you can use Crystals
just about the Broadcast band to get down to the LF band by just using
a divide circuit.Check out this link
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/gadgets/clocks-watches/digital-clock5.htm
Anyways Since the LF band is so low in frequency I was able to make stable
oscilator Circuits with just a Coil and capacitor…I sheilded them
well and they stood right on frquency with no drift. You would be how suprise
how well transmitters stay on frequency when it is very low.Also try the Cmos 555 chip it is good to 2 mhz in frequency. You can set up an
RC circuit for a 162Khz. Now you will have to shape it with a PI circuit
since it is a Square wave out put.The other Chip the make a great sine wave is the LM741 op amp chip. this
can work up to 1 Mhz. I made great LC oscilators with this chip only using
RC circuits,but a Crystal can be hooked on to that chip for a great output.Anyways I have been playing with this band for years and have came up with
really good designs for transmitters and receivers. Even Morse code receivers.By the way I have design transmitters down in the 8 to 15 khz range which there
is no FCC rules about since it is all experimental down in those frequencies.
Yes RF work in those ranges read about it.Thanks
Sean
Seankw40
Total posts : 0I posted a mesage but it under reveiw..
anyways I tried to cover this band also.
It a very experimental band,and you may be interested in it.
VLF Amateur Band Reception (8.7-9.1kHz)
Anyways there is no limit on your transmitt power.
Receivers are easy to build and transmitter are also.
Have fun
Sean
radio8z
Total posts : 0Just so you will know, this site has an automated “spam catcher” which triggers on certain key words or phrases. I don’t know what these are but when it happens the post is entered as “Unpublished” which makes it available to the poster and the moderators. Sometimes it takes a while for a moderator to check it and publish it so be patient if this happens. Don’t take offense, though it can be annoying it does help protect the site from trash.
Neil
RFB
Total posts : 0I used to play with VLF stuff years ago. Was interesting to listen to subs and natural EM phenomena. These days there are lots of natural EM stuff to tune into with all the CME activity going on.
But after a couple of years making my ears ring from static and noise, same with DX’ing, got tired of it and started listening to bands with something other than clicks and pops and buzz saw buzzing.
Currently my LW TX uses a Datakit PLL working an LC oscillator and covers 120Khz out to 300Khz no sweat. A3E, CW and FM by the push of a button. 99 percent of the time it’s operating in A3E mode on 162Khz @ about 900mW PEP into a 50 foot slopped long wire above a ground system, angled facing towards the city with a river and mountain behind it. Works great!
RFB
Seankw40
Total posts : 0HI So
What are you transmitting on it?
Sean
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0I am extremely impressed by your
162 kHz operation.God, I wish I had your ability.
Do you have any data on the coverage
area? I realize this is difficult
to do, because most LW portables are
not very sensitive.Wow is all I can say.
Bruce, DOGGRADIO STUDIO 2
RFB
Total posts : 0“Do you have any data on the coverage
area?”Not anything accurate. Just driving around with a battery operated portable, about 2.5 miles to the south and about the same to the east and west, about 1 mile to the north.
The antenna and ground are not a great setup, just a quick throw together thing. This coming summer I plan to put up a much better system with a vertical mast and better ground radial system….that is if there is room!
RFB
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0RFB, that’s coverage is a lot, as
far as I am concerned.I’m impressed again.
I have to go to job #2, so I will
check in later.Best Wishes,
Bruce, DOGGRADIO STUDIO 2
RFB
Total posts : 0“What are you transmitting on it?”
My LW station carries the same programs that air on the AM CC station, the FM station and the 3 streams.
Sometimes..depending upon the program content on the primary SAM, the LW/AM and FM break away via the 2nd SAM to other programs or for localized programs.
RFB
Seankw40
Total posts : 0Hi RFB
I am tansmitting on 170Khz in ASCII ,or packacket radio that most hams
radio opperators do. I am a ham radio opperator and also kept up Large AM
Broadcast stations as well. I am a retired engineer for Ratheon ,and Advance
technolgies research Labs. Which was a part of NASA. I also retired from the US
Military.I like running on 8Khz also ,and found that data streaming could be
done on those frequencies. AS well voice communications. It a really hard thing
to do since voice takes up alot of band space. Here what you need to do to
get voice communications in that band. First you need to change your voice
in digital files. These digital files carry a much smaller bandwidth,and then
you can transmitt the digital file and your receiver connected to a computer
can open these files. For instant comunication I just change the voice patterns
over to a 16 bit digital word that can be transmitted. This can be then
converted back from a Digital to analog converter chip. It really easy to
do.My transmitter at 8Khz run between 20 to 25 watts output,and I also transmitt
at 170Khz using digital,and SSB since SSB will travel much further than
AM A3E. I use a Sageon ATS803A receiver that can have an out door antenna
hooked up to it. I have designed an antenna tunner so I could match a 210ft
Inverted L antenna up to the receiver it work quit well. This is for the 160Khz to 190Khz range. I have a homemade receiver for the 8Khz band.The 8Khz receiver consist of on RF stage , Local ocsilator,,mixer, three stage IF Amp at 25 Khz and beat frequency to give CW or SSB reception,detector stage
for AM use only, Audio amp stage.My Rf stage is a LM741 chip set at the gain of 50 this alows this amp to go to
20Khz cut off frequency. I could have use the Cmos 555 chip but square wave
gives off to many harmonics. The best chip again was the LM741 for the local
oscilator. Th oscilator will go up to 40 Khz then mininus the 25Khz IF strip.
This will alow me to receive up to 15 Khz. I also have the lowest frequency on
the local oscilator set to 30Khz which allows me to tune down to a 5 Khz signal.Please keep in mind you want you Local oscilator and If strip above the audio
range since if you start mixing frequencies in the audio range you will be able
to hear your local oscilator tone. That in return will cover up the signal
you are trying to receive.Now let use the 8Khz I like working at. First off my Local oscilator is set at
33Khz above the human hearing range. My IF strip is set at 25 Khz still above
the hearing range of a human. Now when that 8 khz signal come in it is
coverted down to the 25Khz IF frequency. 33Khz-25Khz= 8khz being received
on the front end of the receiver. Now you need to detect the 8 Khz sigal that
in the 25 Khz IF stage the easiet way is to use a simple 1N34A Diode. Then run
to your audio satge.For CW reception I just mix a 26Khz single with the 25khz IF which is easy.
26Khz-25Khz= 1 Khz an audible tone to the ear. This was CW can be received.
The other way is to Receive A3E AM signal..Uyou can also use a varible osicalator that goes from 22.5Khz to 27.5 Khz and
mix this and it will allow you to receive SSB singles on LSB and USB.Anyays my receicer receives from 5 Khz to 15 Khz, on AM,CW,USB,LSB.
I have not put the FM stages in it yet,but can be done fairly easy.
I hope this make some sense to you RFB ,and that I did not get to technical
Thanks
Sean
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Dear seanwk40
Your description of your LW project was very clear, I thought, and super interesting. I am very glad you posted that here and it is a wonderful project.
Does the “voice” embedded in your carrier signal say anything in particular —- like weather or identification information? Is it your voice?
RFB
Total posts : 0“I hope this make some sense to you RFB ,and that I did not get to technical”
Oh…I think there is A LOT you might want to catch up on within the last couple of years in the forum.
However, I am quite sure it got “too” technical for some others and has them thinking! 😀
Not to offend but I just about spewed coffee all over my screen reading that last line! LOL!!!
“To” and “Too”…can become a bit complex eh! 😉
RFB
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0Well, I still am amazed by what you guys are
doing.But, as I have said before, I’m not an engineer,
I’m just a dude.Best Wishes,
Bruce, DOGGRADIO STUDIO 2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0It is strange that electronic technicians are called “engineers.” We do not operate locomotives.
Airplane pilots are not called engineers, even though they run jet engines.
Bus drivers are not called engineers even though they drive diesel engines.
Bicycle riders…… skip them.
What is the “eer” extension that we add to the word “engine”?
Are we announcineers? Producineers? Blogineers
Am I an over-thinkineer?
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0I’m a DUDEINEER. And because I made up the
word, I can spell it any way I want!Right now, the above spelling looks OK.
Actually, I’m a bicyclistineer, too, but a
very slow one. Top speed, 7 MPH.Bruce, DOGGRADIO STUDIO 2
Seankw40
Total posts : 0Hi RFB
Ok I am guessing that I did not get to technical for you. I did not
know your background in electronics. Anyways I am have been told many times
this statement. Please now say it in English.Anyways I wanted to go in some detail but not super detail how the
tuning is done through low and high pass filters using RC networks.
As well LC circuits. Also I have a dual conversion set I designed
to keep out imaging frequencies. That was a single conversion set
I first design,but I added a one stage IF that work at 50Khz to just
kill imaging frequencies showing up in the receiver.That changes the Local osicalator frequency,but it all was a very simple change.
I also added circuit to kill Noise. I placed noise filters in the receiver
also.What do I broadcast down on that frequency. I can place my voice over the air.
again remember that I have to change it in to a digital form. This allows
me to place audio voice into a very narrow band width. At 8Khz
bandwidth is very tight. I try to work in a band spread of +/- 500hz
Which would be 7.5Khz to 8.5Khz for a 1 Khz bandpass. This is still pretty wide
but normal voice communications would never work. So place a voice into a
digital form you can get it to work nice in this band width.
Even digital communications will work in this band width. do not expect
anything fast and high speed. Remember let just say 300 baud.Well that take up a band width of 300hz. Now printers in the 1980’s and early
1990 had a baud rate of 600 baud ASCII. This would still place you into a
band width of 600hz. So you can transmitt digital comunications in this
band but just remember that it will be much slower that any dial up
connection found today. Now still it good enough to set up a BBS over the
air. You can easly talk to each other at these slow rates.
Old ham equipment ran at 110 baud for ASCII and these can still be found.
MFJ and other ham manufactures made these units for digital communications.
So there is alot that can be done on those super low frequencies.Here is the best deal of all. There is no antenna limitation or power limitation.
This is all experimental and the FCC has now rules on what you can do in
that band. So if you want to run 10,000 watts no one going to stop you.
There is several transisters that can produce 250 watts that are fairly
easy to get. I just happen to make my first transmitter run at 20 to 25 watts.
The antenna is the tricky part. Big loading coil even when my antenna is over
280 ft in length. Now I have had electronic people show me how to make a
huge attenna loop.It almost looks like the Ferrite antenna’s you see in
AM radio. Just imagine one in 4 ft diameter,and about 12 to 16 ft long.
Save alot of room. this will work for a transmitt and receive.Very directional also,so a good rotar is needed to point your signal.
Anyways this is other stuff I mess with
SeanKW40
RFB
Total posts : 0I have always considered myself as a Pioneer…always creating and always solving and always observant.
It might surprise everyone..but all of us are a Pioneer of one form or another.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0A pioneer tracks pie in the sky ideas.
RFB
Total posts : 0Radio-Pie and the Eer-ie Tones.
Na…won’t work.
RFB
RFB
Total posts : 0I don’t know about the rest, but I prefer “Engineer” than “Technician”. Technician sounds too green behind the ears whereas Engineer has a distinctive sound, catchy and solid, wisdom and strength.
Anything else simply does no justice to the skill.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Gentlemen, rev your engines!
RFB
Total posts : 0So basically everyone is a “reveer”. Or a driveer, or a passengeer, or a side seat/back seat driveer.
Airline pilots…piloteer, commercial and privateer…har har.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Time again for FUN WITH WORDS with your hosts RFB and Carl Blare, this week adding the post-fix “eer” to every word that gets mentioned.
Oh, wait a minute, look at this, we’ve been canceled.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0This ongoing thread mostly features the long wave transmitter project titled DEEP VOICE in which members of part15.us are participating in design of a long wave transmitter.
We have everything except an oscillator that can be modified to work with PLL Data Kit.
Also, I am pre-occupied with startup of a carrier current station.
One more factor is putting a stop on progress. I am afraid of erecting a 50-foot tower, the height permitted under the Part 15 Rule, because of neighborhood considerations. Is there any other approach that would better conceal a long wave antenna?
Carl Blare
Total posts : 020-minutes ago I was sitting in a warm, dimly lit restaurant with a trim brunette who loves radio men, but I got an idea for an antenna so I threw her a $20 and promised to call her next week, so I could run back here to tell you about my idea.
Up above you’ll see that plans for long wave are inhibited by the thought of a 50-foot tower suddenly appearing on the skyline. One solution, offered by RFB, is an angled mostly horizontal antenna, and that sounds like one solution, but hear me out on this…
I have here in my antenna file-folder an engineering paper for A Novel Short AM Monopole Antenna. My idea would look similar to this but be simpler, because it would have only one feedpoint into four vertical monopoles 25-feet high, with another 25-feet of each leg turned horizontal, pointing all four poles of the compass, like four upside-down L figures.
Comments are sought.
RFB
Total posts : 0Don’t think that would quite work while fitting in the 50 foot antenna limit as you will be feeding 4 sets of inverted L’s each at 50 feet a piece, totaling 200 feet in all since your feeding all 4 L’s at a center point where they all connect to each other.
Be the same argument over the cap hat on a 3 meter stick.
Not saying I would argue that point because I don’t play that ridiculous nit pick game over cap hats or your idea of a 4 count inverted L antenna..but there are those who will argue it till the end of time. To work in their world, each inverted L would have to be 12.5 feet each.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0A cage monopole antenna, 4-center fed 3-meter wires fed from a single point, has the same effect as a wide-width copper pipe: it broadens the bandwidth but is still regarded technically as a SINGLE 3-meter length.
The 3-meter rule does not apply to wire-in-parallel. It only applies to wire in series.
Ken Norris
Total posts : 0According to the regulations, we are only allowed 15 ft. of antenna, 1 watt.
If we use a loading coil of sufficient gauge wire, shouldn’t we expect to get at least 5 or 6 miles? with a decent receiver?
Lemme crunch a few numbers and see what it might look like. I can say that at 284 kHz and 25 watts ERP, our airport NDB gets at least 35 miles, if that helps.
Again, precise matching to peak resonance will be a factor.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Ken Norris, you may have said the most important thing of the day.
For some reason I have been laboring under the idea that the long wave rules allow a 50-foot antenna. Am I spinning my wheels?
I’m checking right now….. let’s see….
Look, here it is, Rule 15.217 …. shall not exceed 15-meters….
SEE? 50-FEET! I WAS RIGHT FOR ONCE!
Ken Norris
Total posts : 0Yeah, you’re right, it was a typo, 50′ is 15 meters (approx.) which is OK.
How about modulating the signal, rather than CW or BPSK? That way we can use voice comm. Not sure if it’s legal in the U.S. … checking …
Ken Norris
Total posts : 0OK, I don’t see anything in 15.217 that restricts license-free ops to CW or BPSK. OTOH, Northcountry’s LF90 unit is designed for beacon, cw, or bpsk.
I’d really like to see what it will do over the water. Most of the SWL-type receivers have LowFer ranges, likely using the same or a secondary loopstick as that for AM band.
I guess I’m going to have to give in and buy one, don’t think I’ll have time to build one right now.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0I’m pretty sure that either RFB or MICRO1700 or another Member or a total stranger said that “160 to 190kHz is the experimenter’s band and ANYTHING can be tried, as far as modulation or content, within reason.”
Ken Norris
Total posts : 0Other than the 1-watt final and 15-meter antenna/transmission line restrictions, I’d say that’s true.
Our band here falls within:
0.009 – 0.490 mHz and the emissions limit: 2400/F(kHz) @ 300mI think that’s enough to skip at night, so we could conceivably get several hundred miles out of it in the right conditions!
I can’t find any other significant restrictions in the regs at the moment. There appears to be some other regs governing CC in the low bands, mostly speaking about data … I have to look some more at those, especially power limitations and output as intentional radiator.
I know OPALCO, our local member-owned power company in the islands, does that, but I think it’s not wireless, i.e., the receivers are hooked up.
Seankw40
Total posts : 0Hi Everyone
I was told this receiver got really high reviews back in it day.
The Sangean ATS-803A
It cover everything from 150Khz to 29.999Mhz with AM,CW,and USB/LSB
Has external antenna hook up also.
Anyways is this a really good receiver for picking up distant stations???
Thanks
SKW40
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0I have Sangeon ATS 505 which covers the same range.
As of this time I have not tried an outdoor antenna, so I don’t know what would happen, but as an indoor radio it does very well.
“External” could also refer to the fishing-tackle like antenna “reel” that comes with the radio, which can be hung indoors for about 10-feet.
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0Long wave is the weirdest place.
My Kaito 1103 is a fantastic performer
on the AM BCB but not good on longwave.My Icom R-70 does an OK job there. I
have heard France (LW AM BCB) on 162 kHz,
but you
need a really long antenna wire, and
you need a quiet RF environment. Or a
really good loop.I heard 3 longwave NDB beacons on
my Heathkit GR-81, with a 100 foot wire.
The GR-81 is a 3 tube regen from the 1960s.
(Really 2 tubes if you don’t count the
rectifier.) That was just LAST WEEK.
One beacon was in Nova Scotia, one was
in North Carolina, and I haven’t checked
where the third one is yet. These beacons
run 25 to 50 watts, I think.My Sony 2010 is pretty good on longwave,
but you have to take it outside, and
rotate the radio until it’s internal loopstick
faces in the right direction. (Unless you
plug in an external antenna.) On Cape Cod,
I have heard many European broadcast stations
on that receiver.The AquaGuide 905 (?) which my friend got at
a tag sale (for about 10 dollars)is very sensitive
down there. Here in West Hartford, CT, in the
RF noisy suburbs, I have heard 5 or 6 longwave
BC stations from Europe.
This is in the back yard using the
loop antenna on top of the radio. This receiver
was meant for use on a boat, I guess, but it
does not have a BFO – so it only gets BC stations.
The strongest BC station I have ever heard, was
on 171 kHz, in the house! I can’t remember what
country it was. (This was last year, hence the
name of this thread, I think.)We had a friend in New Haven, CT,
who operated a Part 15 cw beacon in the
160 – 190 range. The “callsign” was SAL.
He had a 50 foot tower and a great ground
system. New Haven is about 25 miles from
here. We heard the beacon plain as day without
any problem in an apartment in the city with
a long wire antenna.
There were 2 receivers that were tried.
One was an ICOM R-71 (not an R-70) and the
other receiver was a Yeasu FRG-7700. The
7700 was not a great longwave performer by
itself, but we had a Grove TUN-3 preselector.
Man – when that preselector got tuned in right,
the beacon just jumped out of the noise.Also, I had a borrowed Palamar longwave converter
in the 1980s that was excellent. It converted
10 kHz – 500 kHz up to the 3 or 4 MHz range. I
can’t remember exactly what range – there were
different models for different ranges – and it
was too long ago. (My feeble brain can’t remember
back that far.)All of the nearby LW NDB or nav beacons that I heard as
a kid have been turned off and dismantled.However, judging from my experience with the
minimal Heathkit GR-81 regenerative receiver
last week –
and this radio is just a few stages above
a crystal set – there still are LW beacons
to be heard. These signals were just barely
audible, but I did hear them, and again, I
was using the same Grove TUN-3 preselector
from 30 years ago. The TUN-3 pretty much
tunes out most of the spectrum and just lets
a little bit in around where you are tuned,
so the radio’s front end doesn’t get clobbered
by AM BCB stations. (Again, for this I was
using a 100 foot random wire.)The BBC runs English language programming on
198 kHz. And I have heard them, weakly, here.
(Not on the GR-81.)
Unfortunately there is a beacon from North
Carolina right on top of them. They are the
only English language station that I know of
in the whole 153 to 279 (?) LW BCB band. And
of course, my favorite LWBC station is Iceland
on 189. They are a real hoot with their Nordic(?)
language and their folk music.That is the extent of my longwave receiving
experience. But I may have to rig up a
serious receiving installation here just to see
what is really going on.Today, in 2012, the longwave receivers that
are sought after are the software driven
rigs and (apparently) the very good ICOM R-75.It’s a challenge. A lot of the good stuff to
hear is just over the noise (or just under it.)The Long Wave Club Of America is very good. If
I was devoting more time to this, I would be
a member of that organization.Basically, if you have a portable
radio that tunes the LW
range, just take it out in the backyard at
night and try it. If it is pretty good, you
might hear some LW NDB beacons. (You will
need a BFO.) Heck, an RF signal generator
can be used for that.Nothing you hear will be strong, unless you
are right next door to it.If you have a table top receiver, try hooking
up some wire and throwing it outside.The main thing is to just try things. The worst
that will happen is you will hear nothing, as in
my otherwise excellent Kaito 1103, or you will
get a bunch of crud, noise, hash, and images of
AM BCB stations.You can also pull the main breaker on your house
if you are really crazy (which I have done.) That
gets rid of a lot of noise junk. But your receiver
will have to run on batteries. (It would be just
like me to shut the house off and then plug in
the ICOM R-70.) (Huh!?)Best Wishes,
Bruce, DOGGRADIO STUDIO 2P.S. Oh yeah – the longwave station
on 171 kHz was in Morrocco. (Argh, I
can’t spell, but you know what I mean.)
This was last year, IN THE HOUSE, on
the 10 dollar yard sale AquaGuide 905.
Conditions must have been really
really good!
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0If I had my druthers, my preference,
I would go to the boys at North Country
Radio and ask about their Long Wave Receiving
converter which covers 10 kHz up to about
500 kHz. They also have an active antenna
for receiving. It might be a kit, I don’t know.I think the receiving converter can be purchased
ASSEMBLED for around $120. The LF-90 cw, bpsk (?)
1 watt transmitter is where I would start. I
wouldn’t be trying AM, at least not right away.
I think the transmitter is available, assembled,
for about the same price as the receiving converter,
but I’m not sure.I’m think you could Google those items
mentioned above, and see what experienced
longwave experimenters think about them.I have a feeling the above mentioned units
might be pretty good,
although I really don’t know. But I do
have a North Country Radio MPX-96 FM transmitter,
and it is very good. Speaking of that particular
Part 15 FM transmitter – a friend built it for
me in California. It runs about 10 mW out. You
can also build it to run 100 mW out. In my opinion,
both these power levels are too high to
comply with Part 15.239, however, here at
DOGGRADIO STUDIO 2, I run my MPX-96 into a
bunch of attenuators. That feeds my indoor
FM dipole. I have tried 1 mW and 0.1 mW
power levels from the attenuators – to my
indoor dipole on the first floor. I think
this complies with Part 15.239. I am running
0.1 mW to the antenna right now, because –
well – I tend to be low profile. Most of my
audience listened to the AM transmitter when
it was on. The MPX-96 kit’s assembly requires
an experienced builder, from what I understand.
The transmitter has a lot of discrete components.
Oh yeah,
the MPX-96 can be modified to do mono. I am
using mono with mine. I have a switch that
can toggle between stereo and mono. My friend
in California did the mono/stereo switch mod.OOps, gotta go.
Bruce, DRS2
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0There is a Part 15 160 – 190 guy
who is using a 30 foot antenna –
not 50. It is shorter, but he
does get results.I think it’s a wire. Heck, nobody
cares if you use a top hat down there.
Really. Nobody cares at all. A lot
of the guys use gigantic top hats.
A top hat can be wires going off in
different directions to trees or
whatever. They just have to be
arranged correctly so each wire cancels
out the wire on the other side. That
way the top hat doesn’t radiate.I think this guy is on YOUTUBE. Maybe
I can find him.Bruce, DRS2
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0Best Wishes,
Bruce, DOGGRADIO STUDIO 2
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0Uh, hey – it’s me.
Did you fall into the hole
where the ground rod goes?You must be pretty thin.
Best Wishes,
Bruce, DRS2
Ken Norris
Total posts : 0OOPS! Please ignore the previous message, I couldn’t delete it.
According to the regulations, we are only allowed 15 M of antenna, 1 watt.
If we use a loading coil of sufficient gauge wire, shouldn’t we expect to get at least 5 or 6 miles? with a decent receiver?
Lemme crunch a few numbers and see what it might look like. I can say that at 284 kHz and 25 watts ERP, our airport NDB gets at least 35 miles, if that helps.
Again, precise matching to peak resonance will be a factor.
Carl Blare
Total posts : 04 AM here in the tool shed and just took a spin across the LW dial, only heard a distant beacon.
Really intend to go forward with Deep Voice, the long wave transmitter designed by members of this website. It is almost ready, but lacks an oscillator that can be driven by RFB’s proposed PLL circuit.
The oscillator will arrive eventually but I am concerned about the antenna requirement. I am not comfortable with a 50-foot antenna that could collapse on a neighbors yard.
What we want is an ingeniously clever smaller antenna that will work well on the long waves.
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0So you heard a beacon – on your
Sangean 505?You know, so many radios are just
SO DEAD down there. If you can
describe the Morse code you heard,
or tell me the frequency, I can
probably figure out where it is.
Maybe we can look up the power of
the transmitter.This is what I think. It’s hard
enough to get a Part 15.219 AMer
going.I think this really has to be done
in “baby steps.” What I would do is:
Well, if the transmitter’s output is
50 ohms, then a one watt fifty ohm
resister will get warm or hot. Then
you know you have power. I guess
before even that, somebody has got
to figure out what the output
impedance of the Deep Voice is. Then
I would run a fifty foot wire out of
a window, and put the transmitter
right next to the window. Maybe
you could ground the transmitter to
a radiator, so something. So you
might have to take some length off
of the antenna to be legal. Is this
something you could do for starters?On YouTube there is a guy using a
30 foot antenna stick, from the ground up.
He probably just couldn’t go any higher.
He has a gigantic loading coil on the
thing, but it works. So maybe eventually
you could put up a stick that is shorter
than 50 feet. But for now, this is just
experimenting time, right?Last night I heard one LW beacon on my
GR-81 regenerative two tube (if you don’t
count the rectifier) receiver. Being a
radio minimalist, to me that was really fun.Anyway, if you can get me the frequency,
maybe we can figure out where this beacon
is that you heard.So back to the Deep Voice transmitter –
the thing is, if you can load up
a fifty foot wire, that will be half
of the battle. Right now, we are just
looking for data on how the thing is
going to be working.Am I making sense? I was at the office
really late last night. I should go
back to sleep. I’m sort of rambling
along here.Best Wishes,
Bruce, DRS2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Enjoyed your all night talk show, Doggradio 2, and here are several replies.
The beacon being received here on the shores of the Mississippi just downstream from Hannibal, Missouri, is on 225kHz with call sign FZ (dot dot dash dot space dash dash dot dot).
The Big Talker transmitter has a 50-ohm output from a final stage designed by Radio8Z, as can be seen here
http://www.kdxradio.com/deepvoice.html
The driver, also designed by radio8Z, is from the Big Talker SW transmitter.
Version 1.0.0 shows an oscillator borrowed from a diagram whose link seems to be dead.
Version 2.0.0 shows the PLL circuit proposed by RFB, but lacking an appropriate oscillator.
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0Good to hear from you. (I see LPH # 30
is up – I’ll be checking that out soon.)So when you get the LW transmitter done,
yup, I’d stick it on a 50 ohm resistor –
take your readings, and see if the
resistor gets hot. And you can check
the Amplitude Modulation. And if it was
me, I’d start with a 50 foot horizontal
wire antenna. I know the transmitter
isn’t done, but that’s what I would do –
when the time comes anyway.I’ve been trying to figure out the
power of the beacon FZ. There don’t
seem to be any lists on that. Do
you know how far away it is from you?Meanwhile, I’ll keep trying to see how
powerful it is. I guess it could be
25 watts, or it could be 1000 or 2000.
I’m not too savvy in the longwave game.It’s a really weird place down there.
Best Wishes,
Bruce, DRS2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Somewhere back in the threads, maybe even on this long one, I once before reported receiving FZ beacon signal and I think it was either MRAM or Radio8Z who pointed out a listing somewhere of beacon stations, call letters, frequencies and powers.
I’ll dig around.
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0Me, too,
Bruce, DRS2
P.S. Me, too.
RFB
Total posts : 0“It is almost ready, but lacks an oscillator that can be driven by RFB’s proposed PLL circuit.”
I believe I sent you schematics to simple oscillators which can be built using junk parts and can be used with the DataKit PLL board.
It’s a matter of simply building it, testing it, and applying it.
The DataKit manual has several oscillator circuit examples that could be used as well.
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0My memory may have flipped, but I thought the oscillators you sent were for the MW band at a time when I was considering adding PLL to the LPB CC transmitter.
I think I would have remembered if I’d been sent a LW oscillator.
But I will go back in time and double-check.
RFB
Total posts : 0The oscillators can be used for either MW or LW. Its a matter of simply changing their resonance range via the LC tank and conductive curves of the active element in the circuit..ie the transistor or tube.
What is needed is a simple free running CW oscillator controlled by a varactor pair or single ended via the PLL and the oscillator driving the buffer stage prior to the final.
Any one of those within the DataKit manual can be modified for LW use. Those I sent and or linked to for oscillators in the MW band can also be easily changed for LW.
Primary things to change…LC tank and active component, though a 2n2222A will do just fine on either band.
Mix and match, overcome and adapt. That is part of the hobby and part of the discovery and learning process. You may just surprise yourselves.
RFB
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0I’ve learned more in this Part 15 game than in
41 years of ham radio.I wish you well.
Bruce,
DOGGRADIO STUDIO 2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0My carrier current station is on hold awaiting parts, so I have begun scrolling through this very interesting thread because I have not given up on the long wave idea.
Something I found is this, a declaration from RFB:
“I am going to build a LW TX. It will use a PLL circuit with reference crystal controlling an oscillator, probably a Colpits design, followed by a two stage buffer. Then flow into a balanced modulator chip with selectable carrier or carrier null to facilitate AM and SSB. For the FM, there will be the typical direct FM configuration via the infamous varactor diode. When not operating in FM mode, the varactor circuit will simply be bypassed with a DIP package relay.”
Since that time you have reported actually running a LW transmitter, so we would like an update on what you have built and whether it will be placed into the public domain for our snooping.
BUT, it is your right to hold the invention as proprietary information, in which case we will simply remain envious and curious.
RFB
Total posts : 0“we would like an update on what you have built and whether it will be placed into the public domain for our snooping.”
When it’s done. :p
RFB
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0The Deep Voice Long Wave Transmitter Project remains unfinished and I am considering taking a short cut and purchasing an AM88 so I can bring a long wave signal to the air.
However, not being the only member of the National Longwave Network I will keep the Deep Voice Web Page active and follow any activity on these threads regarding longwave development.
Ken Norris
Total posts : 0
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Great Ken, nice batch of links for low power.
That 10-gallon loading coil looks like something for giants.
Long wave could be renamed giganto-wave, just the opposite of micro-wave.
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0Carl, I suggest you hold off on getting
anything for longwave. I really think
you are heading in the right direction
with what you have.And Why don’t we see if RFB is able to show
us his unit when he’s done. (No pressure,
RFB.)By the way, some of those links were mind
blowing. I can’t believe those coils and
variometers!bruce, DRS2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0I’m not sure why Doggradio Studio 2 would advise against investing in long wave at this time, but what’s interesting is that he is so right.
Before putting the AM88 transmitter on the credit card, I made one last reading of the Specs and Features. Some problems jumped out.
Think about this:
Medium Wave Power Out AM Mode: 100mW max (2000kHz)
My Comment: If that is true, then the transmitter is illegal. Do you understand why? But that only applies to the medium wave use of the transmitter, and I want to use it’s long wave feature.Long Wave Power Out AM Mode: 200mW (150 kHz) into 50 ohms.
My Comment: Let’s assume that is true. It would mean the transmitter is only 20% efficient. Are you interpreting it the way I am?Order is canceled. Doggradio Studio 2 gives good advice.
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0Well, I knew there was something lacking
regarding the AM88’s longwave capability,
but I think the guys at North Country Radio
are very good people and I think they have
a great company.Here’s the thing. I think the AM88 is really
intended for the AM broadcast band. This
is just my opinion – however there may be
some truth to it. AND, It is my belief (or theory)
that the 100 mW AM BCB OUTPUT SPEC is a
typo. These guy are very very smart, and I
think they just goofed. (This is just my theory,
of course.)The AM88 AM transmitter and the MPX96 FM
transmitter (I own an MPX-96) began as construction
articles in a very well known electronics magazine.
I think the magazine might have been Popular Electronics,
but I’m not sure. it was years ago, anyway.
(This may have fostered the beginnings of North
Country Radio at that time.)As far as I can remember from the original article,
the AM88 article stated that it was for the AM BCB.
And if I am not wrong about this, I think the LW
capability is a secondary “gift” that the AM88 provides.
It will operate down there, but just not at the full power
allowed by Part 15 at 160 to 190 kHz.
(Again, this is just my brain talking.) I understand the
AM88 is VERY GOOD on the AM BCB and that it’s
audio is first rate!As we know, most experimenters down on 160 to 190 kHz
are using digital formats from old Morse code up to
the most advanced experimental digital protocols that
exist today. I have heard stories about Part 15 operations
that ARE using voice down there, but I believe this
is very rare. I think some of these AM LW experiments
are just yard casting. And if you have a nice antique radio
collection, yard casting on your property can be fun
just by itself. And here are some old radios that tune LW.
I know – I have a 50 year old radio that is pretty good
down on LW.So – the AM88 doesn’t do Part 15 full power(?) or modulation(?)
down at 160 to 190 khz…
(I’ll take a look at this, too.)So I think this is why North Country Radio came out
with it’s LF-90, which is a Morse code transmitter for
the 160 to 190 range, which runs I watt DC input to
the final. It’s just Morse code, but that’s really where
you have to start, I think.If I had the land and the money, I would get an LF-90
and North Country Radio’s LF receiving converter in
a minute! I have always wanted to operate down there,
even if just with a Morse code beacon.I believe what RFB is fabricating is a different kind of
transmitter. I believe, with the right parts and adjustments,
his version could operate at many different modes, such
as AM, cw, ssb, and maybe even something like QRSS or
PSK31. (QRSS and PSK31 are some digital modes that
i know a little about, but not much. There is so much
interesting work being done with the digital modes.)So, if I’m correct, RFB is fabricating a low power section
that can generate these many modes, and then he plans to
employ a linear amp to get things up to the 1 watt area.
I know that there has been successful experimentation
on the west coast with 160 – 190 ssb – I have read about it.
Anyway, that’s what I think RFB is doing. I have no doubt
that he will prevail, but he is very busy, and it might take
him a while.So this is what I think, anyway. I think North Country Radio
is a wonderful company. But if it was me, I would get an
LF-90 transmitter, get it going with Morse code, and then
try to modulate it. I remember RFB stating that this is
possible.So that’s it from here.
Best Wishes,
Bruce, DRS2
P.S. Maybe I’ll save up for North Country Radio’s
receiving converter, and then go for an LF-90
after that. It will take a while, but maybe, for me,
that is the way to go!P.P.S. The specs for the AM-88 that you mentioned
above, Carl, were 100 mW out at 2000 kHz. Well,
that’s the top of the 160 meter ham band. If you
own a ham license, there is nothing illegal about
that (except that you meed to be below 2000 kHz
to really be in the ham band, you know – like 1990 kHz
so the upper sideband doesn’t get out of the band.
Perhaps the DC input of the transmitter is adjustable. -Bruce
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0The AM88 has one other spec that should be mentioned.
CW or FM Power Output up to 1 Watt at lower frequencies.
But my main goal is to run AM audio programming.
I am going to complete work on Deep Voice, all it needs is the oscillator.
I might combine some audio recordings of Morse code as a kind of CW, but what will it say? KDX does not run station I.D. because we are not required to do so.
Maybe the code could say stuff like, “Hi. How ya doing?”
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0Hi Carl!
The longwave beacon guys do just
about any identifier that they want.25 years ago, my local BC engineering
friend was running a beacon on longwave
part 15 at 189 kHz. This was running
straight cw. He also ran a 100 mW cw
beacon on 1625 kHz. It was heard out
to about 100 miles also.He used his name and also gave out his
address for QSL info. I believe his
beacon got out about 100 miles. (Since
I was once a graphics artist, I designed
his QSL card. There’s still a copy of
it around here somewhere.)The LW Part 15 beacon I heard on my FRG-7700
in West Hartford in about 1982, simply identified
itself as SD. The frequency and identifier were
on the published lists from the Long Wave Club of
America (a wonderful club, by the way) so everybody
who heard SD knew where to send their monitoring info.You could just use C A R L – if you wanted to. You
could even do it as true cw – just on/off carrier
at the top of the hour. but that would require some
work to figure out how to do that.If you use an audio tone on the carrier for
your ID, I would recommend a fairly high pitch
that gets through the noise. This is what
AM BCB stations do for scheduled DX tests. And
it works.I hope that’s helpful.
Best Wishes,
Bruce, DRS2P.S. The radio rumor mill says that
somebody’s 13.560 MHz (approx) beacon
went 7000 miles recently. However, before
you laugh and fall off of your chair, I
can tell you that I believe it.Some of these “13.560” beacons are running
special digital modes. The evidence that this
beacon made it 7000 miles to the receiving point
is the graphic trace on a computerized software
driven receiver. I saw a picture of it on one of
the links that was posted on this thread. That’s
why I had mentioned that, someday, I might hear
your 13.560 MHz carrier here. It is possible.
The audio would be too weak, though.But this is the wrong thread for that. -Bruce
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0For awhile I thought that “CW” stood for “continuous wave”, but that wouldn’t fit what it actually means. The “C” might stand for “Code” but what does “W” mean? Maybe it means “Code What”.
Anyway, you bring up a point that I bring up: how can the “on off” keying that actually distinquishes CW be accomplished automatically, which I assume the beacon stations require in order to operate constantly. Surely the HAM is not sitting there personally keying the beacon all day and all night. That would be more insane than operating a part 15 station with perfect programming that goes 200 feet.
A really smart automation system should be able to cut and restore the carrier or switch transmitters in addition to merely running audio playlists, but do any of them do that? Perhaps we should invent a way of doing that.
Would it count if the announcer simply voiced “dash-dash-dit-dit…”
mram1500
Total posts : 0If the announcer voiced the morse code it would be MCW.
From Wiki:
“Simply put, MCW uses a fixed audio tone to modulate a carrier wave. This is an older method of sending Morse code, with continuous wave being the more common method used today.
Unlike A1A CW transmissions, A2A MCW morse can clearly be heard on a normal AM radio receiver. It was commonly used by many RDF beacons to send a morse station identifier on a regular basis.
MCW is not allowed in the United States on amateur radio frequencies lower than 50.1 MHz, as it is a very inefficient use of radio spectrum.”
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0A2A, or modulated continuous wave,
gets used by AM radio stations
that are participating in DX tests.The carrier is always running, and
you can hear the audio Morse code
(MCW) through all of the noise and
interference. AM DX listening clubs
still do this. They will arrange for
at station to go on during the test
time, very often on the day pattern,
and the station will play announcements
and MCW. Then a bunch of AM DXers
might be able to log a state they never
would have heard otherwise.CW is continuous wave, which doesn’t
really make sense – but it refers to
a carrier wave (which is keyed on and off.)
They named it continuous wave because it
came along after spark gap transmitting,
which wasn’t a carrier, it was just a keyed
spark that went out to the transmitting antenna.Bruce, DRS2
mram1500
Total posts : 0Spark gap transmitters produce a damped waveform.
With each spark the tuned LC circuit is “shocked” into oscillation. Like striking a bell there is the initial large output which dies (damps) out until the next “shock”.
CW, continuous wave oscillators, on the other hand produce a steady unmodulated RF waveform. Intelligence is impressed on the continuous wave by interrupting it but the output power is constant rather than damping out repetitively.
Now, a rotary spark gap transmitter does produce a specific audio tone due to the fact that the damped wave is occuring at a repetitive audio rate. The stationary spark gap transmitter produces a more random noise (buzz) as the spark does not occur at a specific repetition.
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0I forgot about that.
I guess that’s all I have to say.
Rather unusual…
Best Wishes,
Bruce, DOGRADIO STUDIO 2
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0The Deep Voice Long Wave Transmitter Project is back for action.
We are designing and building a part 15 long wave transmitter, based on an idea suggested by Bruce MICRO1700, utilizing the Radio 8Z designed buffer from the Big Talker SW transmitter we designed, and the special Radio 8Z final stage custom designed for 1-Watt long wave, and the front end consisting of a PLL circuit combined with a VFO oscillator submitted by RFB.
The project is documented here
http://www.kdxradio.com/deepvoice.html
The page needs some updating, but I am working on it.
Get ready for business.
radio8z
Total posts : 0Carl,
Nice to see the project back on the bench. I don’t recall so pardon if this is repetitious but are you planning on using a loading coil on the antenna?
Neil
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0Right now the antenna is beyond the design stage of the moment, which is concentrating on the transmitter.
But when it comes to the antenna, I believe a loading coil the size of a car will be absolutely necessary to reach resonance.
My biggest concern, looking ahead, is how to manage the physical antenna without having a 50-foot vertical sky hook.
RFB
Total posts : 0“My biggest concern, looking ahead, is how to manage the physical antenna without having a 50-foot vertical sky hook.”
Perhaps a loaded inverted V might be easier to manage.
RFB
MICRO1700
Total posts : 0The main thing is to get
it on the air. Once you
have a running transmitter,
you can start with that
easier antenna.Then after that, you can
see where you want to go.Best Wishes,
Bruce, W 60 HZ
Carl Blare
Total posts : 0All day yesterday while people were casting votes for an outcome that had already been determined, I was drafting a detailed blueprint of the oscillator/PLL section so that I would have an absolute map of what to build.
Today will be the parts order list, another snail job, because I have some parts but not others. My collection of parts is in total disarray, but if I don’t try to use them there will be no reason tom have them.
The first hour will be spent looking for a 20pF cap, the second hour a 51k resistor, and so on.
The winner of the election called and invited me to a celebration, but I said, “I’m involved looking for a 1uF inductor.”
RFB
Total posts : 0“The first hour will be spent looking for a 20pF cap, the second hour a 51k resistor, and so on.”
Sometimes the solution is to locate a component that is within range of the value you actually need. Most common (non-military spec) components are going to have a tolerance range of 5 or 10 percent, which is like a huge barn door left open.
So finding a part that is “close” to the value you need will suffice, and save you from that endless search in finding a specialty value that you wont find on the off the shelf place.
IE..special order/custom mfg is not regular off the shelf stuff.
RFB
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