The main objection always mentioned about the Grain Industries Wayne Miller Transmitter is its frequency roll-off above 3 kHz. But we should know by now that frequency range merely states the flat portion of the response above which the response 'rolls off', and the reason we have multi-band equalizers is to set a compensating boost to restore the higher range until we have the frequency response we desire. I would not rule out the Grain Transmitter based on its published frequency response.
@carl-blare I never heard that before! I haven't even heard anyone ever say anything about the Grain because I dont recall anyone who ever used one. It did do well in the HB transmitter challenge years ago, but that test involved only unmodulated testing (I never understood why that was).
The Hamilton Rangemaster has never been all that difficult to tune.
My experience with the transmitter is from the early 2010's, and even then, they had that LED option that glowed green when you supposedly hit 100mw input. The downside to that was I found that it wasn't all that accurate - there was a gradual 'greening' of the LED as you approached that limit, so it was difficult to tell when you exactly hit the mark.
It wasn't all that difficult to tune the transmitter up using the two measurement points, and then doing some simple math (multiplication) to get the actual input. The advantage of that approach is that you can hit the 100 milliwatt value exactly.
I found that the most difficult part was the fact that standing near the transmitter/antenna slightly detuned it. So you had to have a few feet of wire leading to your multimeter, and keep going back to the transmitter to make adjustments until you got things exactly right.
There's no doubt that the ProCaster is more turnkey (for that matter, so is the Talking House and Talking Sign), but not all that much more.
There's also no doubt that the ProCaster sounds better out of the box, due to its built in audio processing. But with the addition of audio processing, the Rangemaster sounds equally as good.
And while I also didn't compare the Rangemaster's range side by side with the other transmitters, I probably obtained the most range from a very good install of the Talking Sign, running the wire antenna outside my house and up over the roofline. As Mark has alluded to in another thread, the Talking Sign was certified in Canada when it was allowed 100 milliwatts at the antenna terminal (from what I have been told, it was about 90 milliwatts at the external antenna output, and 60 milliwatts at the wire output, well over what you'd get from any of the other transmitters with final stage losses to 100 milliwatts).
I always wondered why I got such great range with the Talking Sign, and now I know.
The audio of the Talking House isn't as good as the ProCaster or the Rangemaster, but it can be improved a lot with external audio processing. It's certainly better than the Talking House (I've never used the new and improved Talking House, with supposedly better audio).
I don't think certification can expire, per say. It can be revoked, but that just means that the unit can't be marketed. I don't think you have to stop using it.
And yes, the Talking Sign is still certified in both the U.S. and Canada.
Certification these days, at least in Canada, is a lot tougher than it used to be. A lot of existing transmitters, even the Decade MS-100, likely wouldn't be certified today. The U.S. is a different story - I don't know how the Retekess TR-508 ever got Part 15 certified. It's signal is clean enough, but it got RSS-123 certified in Canada (under 1 watt output) and required a license. Then it disappeared from the Radio Equipment List period for whatever reason.
From what I understand, the Talking Sign was never intended for broadcasting, just what it's name implies - advertising talk. Interesting enough, it's audio isn't all that bad. The ProCaster was designed specifically for broadcasting, and for better audio (with the built-in processing). They did end up reusing a lot of Talking Sign parts. I purchases one of the first ProCasters, and I found it humorous that the interior meter was still labelled Talking Sign.
And even with the slight additional output of the Talking Sign (maybe 10-20 milliwatts), you're not going to get miles of range. When I was testing all these transmitters out, I managed to get over a mile range with the Rangemaster (ground mounted). I got better range in one direction with a Talking Sign (maybe another quarter mile of weak signal), which I thought was amazing given its pedigree and cost (and wire antenna). Plus no hassle with the entire ground wire conundrum.
The limiting factor for AM range, at least at the milliwatt level, was, is and always will be your installation, and where you live (i.e., ground conductivity). A few milliwatts here and there don't make a whole heck of a lot of difference.
@richpowers Ok here's the thing. You've raised a very, and I say very good point!
Gerry from Procaster is where I am here just outside of Toronto. We have become friends sort of and he like most of these transmitter makers are one man shows doing this as a hobby from their homes.
He told me that when he went to the lab which is here just west of Toronto to certify the Talking Sign the lab at the time told him you are allowed 100mW and did the testing at the output. He just accepted that and went along with it. It was certified as per RSS-210 issue 4 and that issue I can't find that far back so I don't know what the actual rule said but the FCC certification would have been done like that and I think the FCC always had it 100mW into final. If that is the case then yes the question is....is the Talking Sign a valid certification?
And I was worried about using a Procaster with a 104" wire but does the Procaster certification prohibit me from using it indoors if I can't use the antenna it comes with and substitute a legal length wire instead? After all the rigid 3 section rod is the same as the same length wire is it not? According to Gerry it is.
I agree with you 100% Rich. I am right now using a Talking Sign that has a questionable certification. Not questionable, wrongly certified!
So if that's the case, why am I worried about using a Procaster that was certified correctly by power into the final amp and worried that a wire antenna is voiding certification. Even though it was intended for outside use can I not use it inside? It is still a legal product certified correctly. I have to think about this one! And I am aware that it(Talking Sign) was certified wrong! Now you raised this I am asking myself why can't I get a Procaster that would do nearly as good powering with a grounded power supply to get ground, no external ground lead and a 104" wire, shorter than it specifies in the rule? And have the better audio quality.
Thanks for this! I have to make a decision. Big question...am I not allowed to use a Procaster indoors? Must it be used outside?
@artisan-radio The Talking sign was intended for "broadcasting" advertising with speech or recorded announcement for selling houses etc similar to the Talking House. Couldn't an agent say you are not using this for what it was intended? I think that there's a lot more chance of that then saying I can't use a procaster if I am using it indoors with a legal length of wire antenna as opposed to a rigid rod. And no, a certification never expires even if newer versions of RSS-210 change from a previous issue. If you buy a car in 2020 and it meets all standards on the date of manufacture but then the rules change and now cars in 2024 have to have this or that, or meet new emission standards or other things it doesn't mean you can't use yours as it is now not complying with new/current standards. Same thing.
I don't understand.
If the Talking Sign has an FCC certification, why couldn't it be used? Was the FCC certification granted by the same lab that granted Canadian certification? Or was it a U.S.-based lab? I know Canada doesn't accept FCC certifications as a basis for FCC certification. I would expect the same the other way.
And let's be realistic here. The Talking Sign had 60 milliwatts measured output at the wire antenna. A Rangemaster, tuned to exactly 100 milliwatts input to the final, will have at least 50 milliwatts output to the antenna (at 50% efficiency, it's probably more). The ProCaster will likely be similar.
I also imagine that there is some leeway in the certification process. 60 milliwatts output doesn't seem unreasonable (as described above) for 100 milliwatts input to the final. Would the lab go inside the transmitter and measure input, or just measure output and make some assumptions. At the end of the day, maybe it was by accident, but the Talking Sign was certified in both countries!
During this, I went to the Rangemaster home page, then transmitter specs to see if they published claimed efficiency for the final stage. They didn't, but then I also noticed at the bottom of the page the typical anti-FM (incorrect) messaging that you can't get more than 100 feet range legally with an FM transmitter.
That's not true with Part 15, where even the FCC states 200 feet. And they don't specify the type of receiver or its antenna, which really makes or breaks reception range.
And just before that, I read in the Radio Discussions Forum (from a supposed engineer) that a Part 15 AM signal can't go more than 200 feet. You'd think that if these guys opened their mouths (or put fingers to keyboard), they would know what they're talking about. Nope.
I understand what you're saying, Mark. But the Talking Sign, even though intended for advertising, is certified under RSS-210. That means that it can be used for anything in Canada but broadcasting. That's the same for the ProCaster, and any other intentional radiator certified under RSS-210, as well.
The term 'broadcasting' in Canada is very nebulous. If you use a transmitter and intend if for your personal listening only, that isn't broadcasting. If I, say, transmit and pick it up with an SDR that I own, that isn't broadcasting. If I make the output of the SDR available to other people over the Internet, that isn't even defined in the rules - it's like someone visiting my house and listening to the radio that I have on in the background.
If you transmit within a specified boundary (as in RSS-123), that is deemed to be not broadcasting. If you transmit certain types of content, such as tourist information, weather, community information (again, as in RSS-123 or various other licensing), that is deemed to be not broadcasting.
I'm using a transmitter certified under BETS (which allows for unlicensed broadcasting) over-the-air. The Talking Sign I intend for my personal listening only (which includes the SDR). If either ISED or the CRTC deemed the Talking Sign to be broadcasting, then naturally I would shut it down. Or move to a non broadcasting programming model for it.
If online SDR's were suddenly deemed not legal (particularly for copyright reasons, although I'm covered right now by SOCAN licensing), then I would take that down. I have no wish to break any laws.
My interpretation of part 15.219 has always been literal.
The rule states "100 mW into the final RF stage".
It does NOT say "100 mW into the final amp".
The final amp is not the final RF stage.
The loading coil is not the final RF stage.
The antenna is the final RF stage.
@artisan-radio Yes the lab in Oakville did the certification for both countries with the Procaster and the Talking Sign.
@carl-blare I think that since part of the wording is "excluding power for the filament" for tube amps the meaning of stage is the final amp.
The limiting factor for AM range, at least at the milliwatt level, was, is and always will be your installation, and where you live (i.e., ground conductivity). A few milliwatts here and there don't make a whole heck of a lot of difference.
A big +1 to that. We spend quite a lot of time thinking and talking about efficiency of PA stages and loading coils, when the installation itself is probably the biggest factor in achieving good coverage. It's hard to beat a ground mounted installation with many buried radials, in an outdoor area with no nearby obstructions. Oh - and good soil conductivity!
@carl-blare I think that since part of the wording is "excluding power for the filament" for tube amps the meaning of stage is the final amp.
I was about to say the same thing. Also, it is commonly understood convention to use the term "final RF stage" to refer to the PA. It's a moot point anyway, as I doubt that a Part 15 station supplying 100mW of RF to a very shortened antenna instead of, say, 60mW, would get you into much trouble with a visiting FCC Field Agent. Besides, when was the last time a Field Agent actually visited a Part 15 AM station? It's been a few years, I think. They seem to be very busy with all the blatantly illegal FM operations.
I saw the effects of ground conductivity quite clearly with that Rangemaster I owned.
Installed essentially on a rock sticking out of the ocean (an island), I was never able to get more than around 1/4 mile range (to a good car radio, whip antenna), no matter what I did (height, long ground wires, radials, etc.). And this was in an obvious rural area, with little to no noise.
Installed a few years later merely on a short metal pipe pounded into what was a floodplain, grounded to the pipe and at about a foot of height, I was able to get over a mile (to the same car radio). This was in an older but built up area leading down to a river.
Just as in real estate, it's location that matters.
@Mark, I doubt theres any restrictions as to if you use your transmitter indoors or outdoors, not even in Canada.
The Talking House was/is an indoor unit, which probably is why the ground plug lead achieved certification, same goes for the Radio Realty transmitters before it, they both, and others too, acheive ground via the outlet - which thus extends the lead to the length of the house wiring, maybe 100s of feet, but most of that is shielded by the house itself, and mostly running vertically anyway, so not effectively radiating..
That's why I suspect certifications had been granted for the Talking House and its predecessors that used the ground plug in that manner.
As for Rangemasters, I bought my first one sometime in 2000-2001. If I recall correctly they were about $800, but I had heard he might have some earlier models at a discount, so I asked, and bought one for $600 or maybe it was $650 and I was completely awed by it without processing it sounded great (though I did end up adding all kinds of gear).
About a year later it got stolen, and I bought another from Keith, but this one didn't sound the same to me, it didn't sound bad, it just seemed like it was lacking some of the boldness and brightness that the last one produced.. I actually sent it back to him and asked him to check it out, which he did and assured me everything was performing perfectly..
I put it back in operation and told myself it was probally in my head, it sounded fine. And it does, but in the back of my mind I really think the first one did really somehow have better audio.
I dont know what versions any of them were, but they all use actual Crystal's (I bought a third Rangemaster a few years ago on ebay, so I currently have two, but somethings flaky with the ebay purchase.