That's what the company I worked for started setting up about the time I left. I worked there for many years. In the early days, we had dumb terminals and our computer was a mainframe in the data center. Text editors for documents and software code were like Wordstar on steroids. You had to keep the manual in front of you all the time to look for the special keystrokes.
Then in the late 80s to early 90s we all got PCs. We could still run a terminal application to go directly to the mainframes, but we could also run Word, Excel and PowerPoint. Suddenly writing documents became a whole lot easier and productivity increased. We used to have secretaries to type documents. They pretty much disappeared.
PCs and web servers killed the mainframes. Now we are going full circle back to mainframes (cloud) and dumb terminals. I think that's a real hoot! I once had an Intel applications engineer ask me very seriously why we still bothered making our own mainframe computers.
In multi-decade parlance, cloud = mainframe. The cloud paradigm is actually fairly sensible for a large company. For those of us in a small operation, the cloud is a whole new world. When you have a system running that serves all you needs nicely, and Microsoft takes it away and stops supporting it, then it causes a world of pain.
All I want is Windows 7 to keep going. Microsoft has said it will stop supporting it in 2014. They have no replacement. Windows 8 is dumbed down dramatically. It is no longer a "Windows" system because it can only display one window at a time. Remember what a wonderful breakthrough it was when Windows allowed you to have multiple windows open and displayed on the screen. In my business, I very frequently have two windows open and copy and drag information across the windows.
Yesterday, I ran a trial version of Ubuntu Linuxfrom DVD. It works quite well. It has cloned versions of Word, Excel and Powerpoint and audio, jpg and movie viewers built in. All for free. This is the direction I would like to see. Trouble is, technical software suppliers have been targeting windows and don't typically have Linux versions available.
One thing is for sure, the Microsoft PC software market will be in turmoil for the next few years. Windows 8 is not selling well and the month to month sales curve is worse than it was for Vista! They are saying the old PC market is dying, and at the same time they are entering the "iPad" market with a dying product! Should be some real fun watching this fiasco in the future.
As mentioned above we are tending to come full circle from mainframe to PC back to mainframe (cloud). At my University in the early 70s our department was the first to connect to the mainframe from a remote terminal. The whole thing was about control and we had to contend with things such as BTAM interface and EBCDIC coding which meant we could only use terminal equipment from one manufacturer selected by the University. The system was down more than it was up and the reason given was "hardware issues" when the truth was that remote terminal uses were given low processor priority so batch jobs which generated income could run at higher priority. This was a sound business decision but it discouraged key to disc applications.
When minicomputers became available (such as from DEC) the University formed a central computer use committee which was charged with approving or not all computer uses campus wide, and from whom permission to purchase a computer with grant funding had to be granted (it never was until much later).
Our department eventually became the first on Campus to be allowed to buy and operate a mini system with the condition that it didn't include a compiler and therefore it wasn't a computer! Our justification was that we needed 24/7 real time data acquisition and key to disc capability for patient care in the hospitals. We arranged funding through research grants and patient billing so this required no support from the University.
When PCs became available in about 83 the University would not permit purchasing them unless permission was granted by the central computer committee and this was given only on the condition that they would control the uses of the machines. I recall arguing with them that the PC will become a commodity such as did the electric typewriter but it didn't fly. This policy continued until I left in 85.
It wasn't about efficient use of computer technology, it was about control and I feel the same way about the proposed "Cloud Computing". With control comes money and this is probably the driving factor. Some people and businesses will welcome relief from the burden of maintaining their stand alone desktop applications but this will restrict what others whose apps don't fit the mold can do.
How are you going to like it when apps you want to run are subject to the control and permission of a central provider and you have to pay each time you do so? I don't welcome this thought since I have already lived it and it was a great impediment.
As more control goes to the Cloud Providers there will be less software available from the little guys who many times share for free or for a nominal fee. I have already tasted this with the problems I had with Win 7 mentioned earlier. I believe this will be a major step backward and am going to try to keep using the software and hardware which I already have, independent of the Cloud, for as long as possible.
Neil
Windows 8 is dumbed down dramatically. It is no longer a "Windows" system because it can only display one window at a time.
Phil -
There have been a lot off comments about this in various PC mags. It could be that a future change/"update" to WIN8 might restore the capability to open multiple WIN8 apps at the same time.
But even the current version of WIN8 allows returning the desktop to the ~exact functionality of WIN7 and earlier. I have a WIN8 laptop, and I usually run it so that the desktop looks/works the same as on my PCs with earlier OSs -- and not with the "tile" (so called Modern) look/habits of WIN8. Just use the shortcut command Windows Key+D to open the old form of the desktop. Then you can populate the desktop with whatever program shortcuts you want and they can be opened in multiple windows, just as in WIN7 and earlier.
The only problems I've had runnning older software have been because my WIN8 version needs software written for a 32- or 64-bit OS. I have a few 16-bit programs I use occasionally (some that I wrote myself), but when I need them I just use one of my older PCs.
I don't use the "cloud" aspects of WIN8. I installed the full desktop versions of the software I use, and set up the secure off-site back up of my data using one of the Internet providers of this service.
The software company "Stardock" has one useful app to return the Start button to WIN8, and another that lets WIN8 programs operate in separate, resizable, closable windows (links below). A 30-day free trial is available, and the purchase price is $4.99 each. I am using them, and they perform as advertised. Maybe they will help reduce your issues with WIN8.
BTW, I have no commercial connection to Stardock.
http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/
http://www.stardock.com/products/modernmix/
According to mythology the almighty gives and takes away, something of an "indian giver".
Microsoft does much the same, upgrading to an always better operating system, until it is taken away and replaced by a costly downgrade.
Back in the day of Commodore 64 I became hooked on programming an automation system, which was swept away by a brief blizzard of new choices, including the Macintosh, with evidentally the appeal of the first icon based graphic interface, while the PC had still a text-based crash-bound green-screen.
The Amiga platform shook the video industry with its Video Toaster production studio in a desktop computer, until its owners literally moved to the Bahamas with the companies bank account.
KDX Worldround Radio is now coming entirely out of a computer using XP, which is losing its Microsoft support in a few years.
Along with the march toward being limited and shackled by future cloudy terms and conditions aimed to criminalize inovation.
I think I'll start paying more attention to the open source crowd before they're done in.
After chewing on this Windows 8 situation for a while, here is what I am currently planning to do.
- Purchase a new laptop with 17.3" screen and mid-range benchmark performance. I will expect to pay somewhere in the $700 to $1000 range. It will come with Windows 8.
- Purchase a full-install version of Windows 7 home premium 64-bit. It will cost about $175.
- Install Windows 7 in a second disk partition and enable dual booting. To do this I will revisit the information on the web describing the convoluted procedure to partition the disk in Windows 8 via BIOS entries (actually no longer called BIOS).
- Install my Microsoft Office 2003 CD under Windows 7. It is listed as incompatible with Windows 8 on the Microsoft web site.
This way, I can go to Windows 7 when I need to get serious work done while still being able go to Windows 8 to see what it can do. I will need to overcome my Microsoft/Windows 8 resentment barrier.
Windows 8 transforms a big expensive laptop into a giant iPhone, without the Phone feature. All the young people I know are glued to their iPhones, twittering, facebooking and showing off their latest gimicky "apps". I hope Windows 8 goes the way of Vista. Microsoft needs a good slap up side the head to realize they also need to keep supporting their millions of PC customers who need to do something with their PCs besides twitting.
Maybe Windows 8 will supply the needed kick to push open source OSs like Ubuntu Linux and Linux applications past critical mass.
My system is set up for a triple boot with Win 7, Win XP Pro, and Win XP Home for the purpose of keeping my present software and hardware working while I gain experience with Win 7. This approach could be useful for Win 8 as Phil proposes but this may not be as simple as it appears.
I found that the instructions on several internet sites were not correct but did serve as an overview of how to do this. I suggest you start by getting three programs: EaseUs for partition management and creation, EasyBCD for boot configuration, and an image backup program such as Disk Manager from Acronis (included if you purchase a Seagate drive but it can be purchased stand alone).
If the operating systems are installed in the right order (oldest first) then the newer versions will automatically configure the boot manager, else the EasyBCD will be needed.
There are some other issues which are not easy to overcome with a 7 and XP dual boot. One is that XP assigns the first partition on a disc as C: and 7 creates and uses a 100 MB hidden system partition as the first partition on the disc so the two systems try to share the same disc partition. There are instructional articles on the internet about this but I found the best way to get this working is to install each OS on a clean disc and then save each as a backup file, create the partitions manually, and then restore the images to the appropriate partitions. A simple registry edit will block each OS from using the partitions of the other systems.
If the installs are not done in the first partition on the disc then the system disc will not necessarily be disc C: which creates problems for program installs.
Once these issues are overcome the dual or triple boot system works well. This is not a step by step description of how to do this but should serve as a guide for what to research.
It also helps quite a bit to keep the data files in a separate partition (logical drive) so data can be shared between the systems.
The whole process of setting up the multiple boot system was a hassle until I understood some of the quirks of how the Windows versions use the physical disc space. Moving the backups to the right partitions was the key for a good construct.
I don't know what issues to expect with Win 8 but at least I know for certain that Win 7 and Win XP can coexist on the same system disc.
Neil
PhilB wrote: After chewing on this Windows 8 situation for a while, here is what I am currently planning to do.
- Purchase a new laptop with 17.3" screen and mid-range benchmark performance. I will expect to pay somewhere in the $700 to $1000 range. It will come with Windows 8. (etc)
____________________
Phil and all,
(Text of an e-mail that I sent earlier today to PhilB):
I saw your post on Pt15us about using a new PC that could boot either in
WIN7 or WIN8, so that you could use MS Office 2003 with WIN7.
When I bought my WIN8 laptop in December 2012 I did not want to spend
the money to register the MS Office Suite that was bundled with it.
Ditto for a netbook that I bought a year or so ago.
I researched the web for something equivalent that was free, and found
the Kingsoft Suite
< http://www.kingsoftstore.com/kingsoft-office-freeware.html>
I installed it on both, and find that its components look/feel/operate
almost identically to MS Office 2003. In my experience they read/write
doc, xls, and ppt files perfectly, including those with complex graphics
and formatting.
They'll also save files in PDF format (see PDF attached, created by
Kingsoft Writer). This paper was published in Radio World Engineering
Extra in 2011.
Attached is a clip from my WIN8 desktop this morning, showing the three
parts of Kingsoft open together. They were opened by double-clicking
their icons on that desktop. The clip also shows the return of the
Start button.
I created these documents on a desktop using WORD, EXCEL and POWERPOINT,
but they open and can be edited perfectly in Kingsoft. The document in
the doc window contains graphics that were generated by the XLS file in
the spreadsheet window.
Selecting those programs when using the tiles for them that appear after
clicking on the START icon of the WIN8 Charms bar invokes the desktop
we're used to from WIN7 and before, and opens the program there in a
re-sizable window.
When using Stardock "Modernmix" that I mentioned in my Pt15us post, WIN8
tiles/apps also will open simultaneously on the old form of the desktop,
and run there in re-sizable windows (clip attached).
It might be possible that you could load your MS Office 2003, and it
would run the same as the Kingsoft suite. MS may show it incompatible
with WIN8, but that may be due to some definition/use that doesn't
matter to most people.
Also I am using Thunderbird for email on my WIN8 laptop, as I don't like
the way the WIN8 Mail app performs (this e-mail was sent from my WIN8
laptop).
Using Stardock "Start 8," my WIN8 laptop opens on the familiar WIN7
desktop when it wakes up. I don't see all the WIN8 tiles unless I
deliberately pull them up. So my WIN8 laptop operates as if it is
using WIN7/Vista/XP.
Anyway, maybe some of my experiences with WIN8 might interest you -- and
possibly could save you the cost and aggravation of setting up a new,
dual-boot system.
No doubt it's MS, the company that grinningly (look at Bill's puss) charges us to be spied on, investigated, frustrated, and charged again.
I'm having a problem downloading mp3's from a long time program source, and since Firefox just had an update, I thought MS Explorer was worth a try.
But explorer refused to allow my home-made home-page and kept defaulting to their unwanted home-page.
Then when I tried to copy and paste an e-mail address Explorer refused to accept it.
What's the point of high priced trash that makes hate criminals out of us?
I can understand why an operating system supplier would want to make the system operate with as little user intervention as possible and this is no doubt a good approach to address the needs of many users but in doing so it seems that we are forced to accept "common denominator" features which may not be to our liking.
There are many annoyances in XP and Win7 that I just want to make go away such as the constant nagging via the balloon tips that updates are needed and the ridiculous auto play which pops up every time removable media is inserted. These features can be turned off via registry edits and obscure system configuration selections and I have applied at least two dozen such tweaks so the operating system will leave me alone while I do my tasks. It is irritating to discover that many of the updates undo these changes.
The Windows Task Monitor showed over 60 tasks running after a clean OS and program install and I went through the list one by one and disabled those which were not needed and the list is now down to 36 and the system start up and shut down are a lot faster. One major slow down I found was that XP installs updates during shutdown. Maybe the start and stop speed doesn't matter to most but I prefer a responsive system, not one in which the tubes have to warm up in order to operate, and one which is not constantly nagging me about something.
After much effort the XP system is working to my satisfaction.
Neil
As easy and cheap as it is to swap a hard drive, why not just swap out the drive and load your other OS on that.
Or, maybe there is a way to boot to an external drive.
Keep one in the box, the other outside the box.
^^^This would work though using an external HD might make it run slow.
Several of the articles I researched suggested exactly what you did by using a different physical HD for each system. The HD's could be left installed and the boot device could be selected on startup.
My system would lend itself nicely to this because I keep all my application data on a data only HD which any running OS can use. This gets a bit tricky because Win 7 and Win XP use slightly different security attributes and sometimes file access is denied but there are workarounds.
The reason I wanted to put the three OSes on one drive is that they only take about 7 to 12 GB of space and the drive is 350 GB so there is plenty of room to spare with them all on one disc.
Because of the size of the OS partitions I can do a complete system backup in less than 2 minutes to the data drive using the Acronis Disc Manager which came with the Seagate drive I installed. This free version doesn't provide incremental backup but this is not a problem for the OS backups. It keeps things simple.
Backing up the 2 TB data drive is more of a challenge. For this I use an incremental file backup program and shoot it over the LAN to another machine which is dedicated only to data backup.
Lots of options if one is willing to learn and experiment.
Neil