The Initiative call to a Meeting

Hi TheLegacy.

Sure. When you figure out when the meeting will be post it on here and I will gladly attend.

I also need to bring my proposals up to date as to what I want to recommend.

Good idea to have a meeting.

I'm thinking Friday, Saturday, or Sunday @ 8PM EST.  However I want to get a hold of A-Train as well.  He needs to be a part of this.  I hope you are sitting down and we need to thank Station8 for his findings as this WILL give us a push past the rejection of 1972.  Some of you special folks who have been hard at work already have copies of the real holy field.  I also want to thank all the folks who have been working behind the scene in this Initiative.  Finally things are falling into place.  Yes paperwork is the hardest, but the Initiative could not happen without everyone's participation.  Again thanks.

Any of those nights will be fine for meeting.

While we're here, I want to issue a mild disapproval to a second group of commenters...

The first group, that we've heard from since day 1, are those who say "There's no point trying because you'll fail;"

And now the second group who say, "This has gone on long enough now let's drop it and forget about it."

False.

Planning a strategy does not have a deadline... good planning can go on for years, if necessary, until the time is right.

It's called patience.

Problems facing the Initiative...

In a previous gathering it was strongly recommended that the FM Initiative concentrate strictly on seeking a higher field strength per 15.239 for part 15 FM use.

Recent posts are back to square one promoting an all-band initiative to get everything raised: long wave, AM and shortwave along with FM. This was never agreed to by all those involved.

Therefore I am here ONLY to support an FM Initiative.

As previously stated, I am not an activist and have no time to invest in the physical work of seeking an FM upgrade; my place is to agree that the present field strength allowed under 15.239 is needlessly low and was not established with the same intelligent engineering as was 15.219 for AM, which seems about right by my estimate.

I have conducted experimens with a Ramsey FM30B which is adjustable from 15.239 level up to some higher level, a range differential from 200 to 1000 feet, and this is the allowance that I will defend and support.

Unfortunately this common sense power range is not suitable for many dense population centers where the FM band is glutted and crammed with licensed services, many of which duplicate each other, evidence of shoddy management on the part of the FCC. I would call the FM band as it exists in my area one big glob of licensed interference. Bad job.

However, siding with the FCC in the very real business of minimizing interference, it is undeniably true that part 15 hobbyists, predictably, are generally not qualified RF engineers to the degree necessary for knowledgably analyzing and accomplishing fully compliant radio transmission at any power level, giving credence to a tolerance for possibly inferior operation at levels too low to matter, which would give reason to 15.239 as it is or something similar.

Although health affects of RF exposure is a real hazard which has been raised in regard to exposure to nearby radiating equipment, the FCC has completely gone deaf and blind in their permitting massive microwave polution from far and near, including the expanding amount of Wi-Fi exposure directly adjacent to vital body organs and throughout homes and cars.

As Americans we must allow lost causes, including children, pets, and part 15 radio.

Carl, there's also a third group, of which I am a member (and you may be too).

I believe that the initiative is possible, if it's kept tightly focused, is realistic about its demands, and addresses not only the concerns of its members, but also the FCC and licensed broadcasters.  To date, I haven't seen much evidence of that.

Your last comments in this thread are a breath of fresh air, and some of the most thoughtful that I've seen recently.

This whole thing started talking about increasing U.S. field strength to Canadian limits and maybe a bit more (because even the allowed Canadian field strengths are pretty anemic except in special circumstances).  Somehow it's morphed into 1 watt or 1 mile for FM, AM and more.  That 1000 feet you mentioned for FM range (which is still well above what Canadian limits will give you to typical radios) seems a lot more reasonable, particularly if a better method to measure compliance can be arrived at (Canadian limits translate to well under a microwatt, perhaps a microwatt max would be the way to go).

I am not looking to be considred one of the people who has given up, but, I joined the cause when only FM was mentioned.

Then came AM then SW and LW that's where you loose me, because AM, SW and LW are not within the scope of my background and I can not sit and speak to a group of people about something I have little to no knowledge about.

Enough said.

Bruce.

Artisan, you have been a valuable contributor by always encouraging orderly reasoning as talks go along.

Your comment that the Initiative .... "address(es) not only the concerns of its members, but also the FCC and licensed broadcasters.  To date, I haven't seen much evidence of that."

Everyone should pause now and think about that. Why haven't we gotten that kind of input? Nobody has come up with an answer to that challenge.

Thinking about it a bit at a time, for example "the concerns of the FCC", being very realistic, is there a true and solid answer to what those concerns are? We can go with the function of the FCC, spectrum management and interference abatement, but the FCC is also a political entity in bed with corporate interests. $$$$$$$$

Thinking about "concerns of licensed broadcasters", is this a single set of concerns that apply to all of them, or is each one of them "concerned" about whatever the particular licensees have in their perception. Are we appealing to their consulting engineers? Owners? Managers? Sales departments?

Their is an axiom in communications theory... "Know your audience."

When we address the concerns of these people they are our audience. But we don't know them. All we have is disconnected prejudices and estimations.

Thats been my beef the entire time with the initiative. To me it always seemed to be one of emotion which has no place in bureaucracy. Show me a well engineered and thoughtout plan and I'll be on it like white on rice.

FM is a bit of a tricky beast, field strength needs to be the focus. Not miles, distance, or power. Whats a mile? Whats a watt? A mile is not a useful measurement in terms of service, a watt does different things in different places.

As far as AM, SW, and LW go...

LW doesn't need an upgrade, you already have a watt and tall antenna allowed. SW and AM could theoretically be loosened up.

Based only on my own observations, 500mW on 1470 KHz doesn't do a whole lot in the way of interference at my location. 1 watt on 13.560 mHz at my location goes a little over a mile on a 1/2 wave dipole antenna roughly 10 feet in the air.

That obviously proves nothing to the FCC nor would I expect it too. Additionally I am in a very rural location. However, based only on my non scientific observations 500mW on AM and 1 watt on SW are reasonable goals that could be proven.

That being said, I'm in agreement that we need to focus on one band at a time.

We have found some legal documentation that needs to be addressed at the meeting. We welcome everyone's opinion. The meeting will be held This Saturday Feburary 27^th 2016 @ 8PM EST.

It seems to me that the bands to go after, in decreasing order of liklihood of success, would be

1. Shortwave

2. AM

3. FM.

And a graph of the probability would not be linear, but exponential (decreasing).

Shortwave would make an awful lot of sense in terms of allocating dedicated frequencies.  I could see carving out a small band just below 7 Mhz (where the Shortwave Pirates go now), and giving it to unlicensed broadcasters (similar to the CB band, where of course no broadcasting is allowed).  There, ground wave communication is prevelant (with some possibilities of skip, particularly at night time).  I could also see an allowed power output of 5 watts (to cut through daytime noise), with little prospect of interference to anybody else (other than other broadcasters in the band), and no antenna restrictions (again, much like CB).

I see problems with dedicated frequencies in both the AM and FM broadcast bands (read - it likely ain't happening) and so you're always going to have the interference issues (unless, of course, you really restrict field strength or power or whatever it is you use to measure output/range - 1 watt on FM is just pie in the sky, in my opinion).

Shortwave receivers, while not nearly as prolific as AM and FM receivers, still are fairly common.  Not in cars, mind you, although there are car shortwave receivers still available world-wide, just not in North America.  And who knows, there just might be a business opportunity if this takes off - CB radios are still being manufactured today, so maybe some interprising individual could bring a car shortwave converter and/or receiver to market for this new band.

That's for sure.

By that I am agreeing with Artsan's scale of liklihood, with shortwave having been almost entirely abandoned by most world stations, never too big in the U.S. in recent years.

FM has become the name of the game for commercial, religious, and noncommercial radio stations, which sets us against the licencees, the NAB and their hand-servant, the FCC.

I guess as a small group of beggars we need to consider our best chances which may be different than what each one wants.

It has been suggested before by others but no reaction to the idea has been expressed, so I am going to repeat what's been advised...

If this FM Initiative or whatever the initiative ends up being is 100% serious about approaching the FCC with a request for change, a consulting engineer and a qualified attorney should be obtained.

There will be a cost involved, probably quite high, but it's the right way to do it.

Otherwise, doing it as a home-spun grass-roots hobby effort will be like attending a presidential inauguration with no shoes.

Artisan Radio: I'm assuming your talking about the 6.9 Mhz band? Yes Alan Weiner is talking and pushing for that. This is what started the Initiative for Shortwave and followed by AM due to so much talk about translators and the death of AM. If most of the AM stations starts to move to FM we may have a chance. But due to the fact that the Radio's are garbage these days it will take at least 10 Watts on AM to be heard 5 miles. I do believe 1-2 Watts on AM would be more likely due to the fact many stations see more value in FM. Alan Weiner see's value in Short Wave so maybe getting involved with him could also help AM or MW.

Carl Blare: you do have a point. However to hire lawyers, consulting firms, and the like would require dues to be paid. That will sort of be a pie in the sky for Hobby Radio as some of us can barely pay our rent and other important bills. You could not even begin to afford a consulting firm unless one was going to volunteer themselves based on their passion for the Hobby Broadcasting community (there's a likelihood). We may already be in a situation ware without affordable representation for your existing hobby (unless the NAB is disbanded) will kill your hobby. More info on that at the meeting. But that will only happen if they can prove that LPFM propaganda CD as a definite fraud and that won't be easy. If it goes through that the FCC does prosecute, then we have a great chance to get what we want as the FCC won't listen to a fraudulent organization and any proposals they may make will be thrown in the trash. This could open the hobby Radio scene so we o get a slice of FM. There is more info we got recently on a possible death to part 15 Hobby Broadcasting coming in the very near future if we on't unite NOW!!! This is something no one has brought up because until this morning was unknown to all hobby broadcasters until we accidentally found it while digging for other info. Lots to talk about here and the anticipation is giving me a huge headache. Hope to see you all at the meeting at 8Pm Saturday.

Thelegacy, I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about in your response to Carl.

Carl made several good points.  Surely there must be a lawyer and engineer out there who is willing to work pro bono if there is such a high demand for greater power for unlicensed broadcasting.  You would have to convince them that any sort of petition and/or initiative has a chance to succeed.

I see lots of enthusiasm, but as mighty1650 has pointed out, very little technical and engineering output.  I would also add an understanding of the politics to that list, as any sort of petition to the FCC will be fraught with that.  Don't get me wrong, enthusiasm is great, but that and $5 might buy you a latte at Starbucks.

Why not throw all the resources towards the one initiative that is most realistic - shortwave - it at least might have a shot - and go from there.  I'm sure there will be lots to learn from the process at the very least, and you might get more people willing to jump in and help (including that lawyer and engineer).

As for the response to me, I really don't know who Alan Weiner is (other than the owner of a licensed shortwave station and former pirate) and what he is doing to push unlicensed shortwave broadcasting.  Is something tangible actually happening there?