Why does there need to be a set of rules or recognition to Part 15'ers in order to take part in an EAS protocol?
Is it absolutely necessary for the powers at be to have an official list of Part 15 stations taking part in the system? What difference does it make other than to hang something else on the wall to show off?
Get real here. Part 15 was NEVER a part of ANY official protocol concerning emergency services...period. End of story...end of debate.
We know that...so whats the point in striving for some official recognition to be added to some list that would be thrown into the bottom of the pile anyway?
Now if the Part 15 community cannot develop their own protocols that mesh with and work smoothly with the official EAS protocols, then there is absolutely NO REASON to even bring up the subject or bandy back and forth over some official recognition agenda. At one point some here stand on one side of the fence over this issue then suddenly jump over to the other side quoting official protocols and throw in the fact that Part 15 is not a recognized official radio service.
Sort of putting the cart before the horse and taking away the horse.
The EAS system has been in place since 1997 and I will take a well educated guess that every single owner/operator of a Part 15 installation knows by now how the system functions and how it is set up. If not..then they have been hiding under a rock.
To conclude...I suggest any Part 15'er who wishes to have EAS capability in their station is to simply purchase the necessary gear and set it up to monitor your primaries and secondaries. As to handing out information, that is left to the owner/operator to set up a procedure.
Expecting official recognition and special provision and policy for EAS and Part 15 is expecting the Sun to go nova in 5 minutes.....gonna be a MUCH longer wait for that.
So why sit around debating an issue that is mute to begin with? Just take it upon yourselves to do what you need to install EAS capability to your stations and develop your own procedure for your area.
Part 15 is NOT going to get that official recognition or special provision protocol...ever. Might as well file that in the "whatever" folder and close the drawer, lock it and move on to something else.
But there is absolutely NO REASON WHATSOEVER for ANY Part 15 installation to not TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES to do what is necessary to have EAS abilities in their stations to distribute emergency information.
And no one needs government to hold your hand to make a decision to do something. If so..then you need to shut down your stations and go do something else. Thats just my position on this, and currently my stations does have EAS capabilities and I developed my own policy and protocols for distributing emergency information..be it from local, state or federal levels.
I did not need big brother to hold my hand or create some piece of paper with a stamp of approval to take action and do what I felt was right for my listeners.
If your going to serve the public..you should do so to the limits of your abilities and/or financial situations.
Lead, Follow..or get the hell out of the way.
Be a part of the solution....not part of the problem.
Take action....not sit there and react.
Be in control...or prepare to be controlled.
RFB
Well.. EAS aside, my personal frustration stems from the public view of Part15 broadcasters as being ridiculous nonsense, which stems from, and is escalated by things like the public statements on the FCC website stating:
Unlicensed Operation Is Prohibited. A very common question asked to the FCC is whether broadcasting at very low power requires a license. Please be aware that unlicensed operation of radio broadcast stations is prohibited, even at such low powers such as 1 watt or less. The only unlicensed operation that is permitted on the AM and FM broadcast bands is covered under Part 15 of the FCC's rules, and is limited to a coverage radius of approximately 200 feet.
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/audio/howtoapply.html
Now, is that, or is that not an accurate statement?
Well, it's not! And if you tried to explain that to the common joe, they would think you were full of yourself.
Whether you are referring to the topic at hand of EAS, or simply broadcasting to your neighborhood.. The official statements at face value insinuate that we as part15 broadcasters are operating illegally if our transmission can be heard beyond 200 feet.
Not trying to deviate from the topic here, I'm just saying that the point is Part15 broadcasters are broadcasting legally, and deserve a certain degree of official PUBLIC acknowledgment. but instead it seems we are either legally ignored or insinuated as being illegal to start with, and thus can be perceived as such.
This is a legitamate point.
But RFB, you seem to say that we're just whining about nothing.
"The EAS system has been in place since 1997 and I will take a well educated guess that every single owner/operator of a Part 15 installation knows by now how the system functions and how it is set up. If not..then they have been hiding under a rock."
I guess I kind of like my rock 😉
What are so angry about?
The issue was sort of misinterpreted, I think. Sure you could re-broadcast something like, say, an amber alert, or whatever. That's different than taking part in the system, the code which takes over participating licensed stations and puts them all into one network.
Further, I think it's a pretty strong error to think Part 15'ers have dealt with it much, so I'm afraid I must disagree with your assessment that we all know how it functions. In fact, if you don't know about recent changes instituted in 2005 and 2007, as well as the new CAP/EAS hardware which will soon go into effect, it looks to me like you haven't quite kept up either.
I'm only aware of it because I'm on Prometheus' Stubblefield group list (LPFM Community Radio), and there has been quite a bit of discussion about the changes and how to deal with them.
Just to reiterate, I think if you really want to participate in emergency comm, the ARRL is the best way to go. That's the way I'm choosing, if only to learn more.
In your last comment, Marshall, you turned off onto a different road than I thought we were on.
You spoke of "breaking the law" and "not following the rules," but no where in this thread has any such thing even been hinted at.
I would like to know what you are saying.
I think all of you guys are some of the
smartest people I have ever met in my
life.
So you may not all completely connect with each
other - but I still think you are ALL really cool.
And I have had fun talking to each and
every one of you.
Also, I have no opinion on EAS/Part 15
because I have to read all of your
comments over and over a bunch of
times - and then think about it.
So if you guys keep talking about this
sooner or later I'll be back to add my
3 cents.
Like I said before - I have learned more
on this board in 4 years than being
a licensed ham (since 1971 - 40 years.)
Bruce, MICRO1690/1700
FWIW, I think that's where the problem of this thread lies. The difference between re-broadcasting and participation. It may be that re-broadcasting EAS messages in any form requires permission, but I haven't been able to find rules governing it. I think they may even want that, but I'm not sure.
For example, and I don't see at all how it could happen, if your re-broadcast includes the code and somehow gets picked up by a participating station, it could cause havoc.
NOAA would like to know if a station is re-broadcasting on the internet, but there appears to be no other caveat.
Could be that EAS messages fall into the same category, as NOAA/NWS messages are also send via EAS in emergencies.
Actually folks..no I do not think the debate is pointless. However what I do think that is pointless is to continue a debate where obviously from an official standpoint...the Part 15 arena is not a recognized official radio service...that alone should put the nail in the coffin on the subject.
Now where I also make a loud stand is with this.....each one of us who own and operate a Part 15 station or Carrier Current station is not being told or mandated to NOT do what we can OURSELVES to aid with emergency notification.
Let me explain a bit further.
Since the "official" channels wont and will not recognize Part 15 radio as an official service, and has clearly stated this time and time again, that basically opens the door for us Part 15'ers to "choose" if we wish to implement some sort of warning system in our operations. Until someone shows everyone an actual printed document or statement from the FCC that Part 15 broadcasters cannot take it upon themselves to form their own warning system, there is no reason why anyone should wait around for the FCC or anyone else to implement such additions to your Part 15 station.
Yes it would be "nice" to have up on the FCC website or some other mainstream blog a list of Part 15 stations that help out the "real McCoy's" regarding EAS emergency notifications.
I am not against such a list, however I think its a total waste of time and effort as well as concentration to resolving the issue of how to best provide Part 15 station audiences with emergency information waiting around for big brother to list you on their list. While those who wait keep on waiting..someone else has already taken those steps to provide the added service to their station regardless of the existence of some list or not.
Lets put it in another way....did ANY of you who own and operate a Part 15 station wait around for the blessing of the FCC to tell you to set it up and put it on air?
I doubt it.
So..why is implementing some form of emergency information system in your Part 15 operation any different from actually putting up a Part 15 station?
It isn't.
It just takes creativity and action to do it.
Now here is the other side of the coin.
Lets say the FCC decides to create an official list of Part 15 broadcaster stations who have EAS capability. Do any of you really think that is where the buck will stop with just some list that is recognized officially?
Do you all want to go through the monitoring and logging and testing that the licensed stations do? Do you want your Part 15 station to be under the thumb like the licensed stations are? Do you wish to begin the trip down "control lane" to your freedom of operations with your Part 15 station?
Yes when it comes right down to it....you cannot have your cake and eat it too. Not unless you want to become regulated heavily and undergo all the aspects of licensed stations and all that entails with it.
But for those who are so heck bent on getting put onto some official list..I suggest you petition the FCC for such a list to be created for a form of radio service that is NOT even an actual recognized radio service to begin with!
Basically folks..who cares about some recognition by the FCC! I would much rather have the recognition in the public arena that I and my stations took those steps on my own initiative to have a way to inform my listeners when an emergency occurs or if severe weather is heading our way.
It is a matter of prospective as well as initiative. You can either take the initiative and have the prospective of knowing you did something with your station beyond simply playing music or babbling on a microphone and are providing an extra service from your station.....or sit around and toss this issue back and forth like a flat football and put your audience and recognition by said audience aside.
The choice is simple...and quite effective. Complicating the simple never achieves anything but confusion and division.
JUST DO IT! 🙂
RFB
One can easily obtain permission, or simply convert the information and speak it aloud from a piece of paper. Its no different from reading news during a news cast from the local newspaper..which I am sure a lot of Part 15'ers actually do anyway.
Not everyone sports a weather radio, even though they are publicly available just about everywhere. Point is...the general public is NOT thinking about making sure they have a weather radio on hand, or a radio capable of picking up HAM transmissions in case of emergency.
They turn the radio they have on..tune to a station...and listen...thats it. In order to solve the issue you must look at it from the audience prospective in this case.
The fact remains that if you have a number of people tuned to your Part 15 station and there is some sort of emergency and you have no means of knowing of the emergency yourself....what good are you doing for your listening audience at that point and how will the audience tuned to your station know as well?
Hmm...interesting. Well there is one way around that little problem...and that is to simply develop your own measures to have the ability to know when an emergency is taking place so you can inform your audience.
A well informed audience is appreciative and will recognize who it was who passed on that information. They dont care about some list...and neither should any Part 15 station owner/operator.
I say again...JUST DO IT! You will thank yourself for it...as will your audience.
RFB
I was contacted by NWS-NOAA. They asked MY permission to link to MY NOAA WX streaming audio!
I am listed on their website that lists NOAA streaming audio sources around the country.
Now I'm not into recognition but I'd gather they are OK with my rebroadcasting their NOAA Radio Weather station.
As for this "discussion" regarding the legalities of carrying EAS messages, since it has been stated here that we as Part 15 "broadcasters" are regarded as little more than background noise, is there anything that says we must shut down during an emergency? The rules that govern our Part 15 operation say little more than to spell out restrictions for our equipment such as power, antenna or field strength as the case may be.
What about the unknowing Part 15 broadcasters (read IPOD, mp3 players, etc. plugged into IPOD style transmitters.) If they are oblivious to such EAS events and continue to transmit their content to their local radios, are they subject to litigation for not shutting down during an emergency? They would fall under the same guidelines as do we.
This discussion can continue to 2nd guess the interpretations of the rules regarding EAS but those rules apply to LICENSED services. Don't they?
Do you all want to go through the monitoring and logging and testing that the licensed stations do? Do you want your Part 15 station to be under the thumb like the licensed stations are? Do you wish to begin the trip down "control lane" to your freedom of operations with your Part 15 station?
Nope!
I was contacted by NWS-NOAA. They asked MY permission to link to MY NOAA WX streaming audio!
I am listed on their website that lists NOAA streaming audio sources around the country.
Yes! So cool.
The closest NOAA station to me is Charleston, I found it surprising there wasn't one here in the Savannah area.
Hello Mr. Burns ...
"The choice is simple...and quite effective. Complicating the simple never achieves anything but confusion and division."
Well, I don't know you, haven't seen your posts in recent times, but I can say that "simple" is often deceptive. Your approach is one of dead-endedness, but I don't think things are always that simple. I don't want to complicate things beyond measure for the sake of exporting ego to the group, but I also have found there are good reasons for adding value, which is where I wholeheartedly agree.
However, having been involved with emergency services off and on for 25 years or so, I can also say that erring on the side of caution is good policy for all agencies involved, different levels and modes of communications included.
Perhaps an extreme example: During a CAP search and rescue operation (real one), the family of the person in the lost aircraft chose to hire their own helicopter and pilot to 'help' with the search. The chopper pilot had no SAR training with CAP and so no knowledge of grid sectors and altitudes where our CAP aircraft were assigned, and no knowledge of CAP radio procedures on the specifically assigned emergency channel (126.5mHz). The MC told the family that would be fine, but that the CAP would call our aircraft back to base and wait until their private search was finished, then we would resume our normal search operations. Wisely, they decided to send their hired chopper away and we were able to continue and eventually found the aircraft.
At another time, the CAP (including our squadron) participated in a statewide disaster drill which involved coordinating all sorts of agencies and many dozens of frequencies and other communication formats. HUGE undertaking, lots of SNAFUs, everyone learned a great deal.
There is a danger when untrained and unqualified people attempt to deal with emergency operations with no controls. Therefore, I can easily see why someone would want to 'be sure they're right, then go ahead' (stolen Davey Crockett slightly modified quote).
Compliance (following the rules) is the primary issue when the Department of Homeland Security and the FCC got involved with the EAS plan nationwide (since 2001). Part 15 stations can only operate as a "shadow broadcast station"; and has the potential to supply confusing, incomplete or inaccurate information. Confusion resulting from not being inside the systemic loop for emergency information and data. (Recently, local law enforcement and emergency management gained access to the local system automatically, directly and locally.) I can nearly guarantee that being caught providing incomplete, confusing or inaccurate information will put you squarely in the cross-hairs of some attorney's injury law suit. Certified emergency communicators, by law, are exempt from most legal action. Emergency information, to be of the greatest value, must be timely and delivered as quickly and accurately as possible. This is the very essence of emergency communications involving public safety. The EAS plan is developed to assure accuracy and timeliness. The plan requires training and participating with the other participating stations to become a complete communications network.
I know this doesn't set well with some of us here. I am not discouraging anyone to participate. I am encouraging anyone willing to do the training, homework and planning necessary to work with your local emergency management folks. Working as the "Lone Ranger" in a communications network is like kissing your sister. Ultimately, its not very satisfying.
Carl is correct. The best place to get nearly free training is through Amateur Radio and the ARRL. This organization in cooperation with federal, state, county and local government officials can help get you trained and "in the loop". The ARRL already has operational MOU's with many of these agencies and organizations.
And finally, my experience with EAS is that it is a moving target. Unless you are on the inside, you cannot know everything you need to know to be a responsible part of the network. I, in no way, want to diminish the work some of you have done to be a part of your community's emergency response network. For the "wanna-be's", its time to go to school and learn what you need to know to really participate. My life is too complicated to add another layer of responsibility to a reasonably satisfying activity: micro-broadcasting via Part 15. Even though I have the training and the experience, I choose not to participate.
The best to you all. This will be my last post on this topic.
Howdy Ken!
I believe that at the very least a Part 15'er can do to help the official system is to simply be ready to relay information, be it re-transmitting audio or opening up a mic and reading information. It might not be as grand or spotlight as the official EAS stations and protocols, but it can be a valuable addition.
I also do not think that the majority of Part 15 operators are that unaware of how to distribute emergency information. Unless the operator is just there for kicks and giggles and has no idea of what radio is all about..perhaps that operator should be doing something else and not even have a transmitter in their possession.
We cannot rely on government for everything no matter how much government mandates procedures and policies. There are more of the public than stations and government mandates. Government cannot solve everything and be the end all to everything. We however can do our part since we wish to serve the public interest to begin with. And we certainly do not need recognition or be on some list to do our part. All it takes is initiative and a well thought out plan and a Part 15'er can earn that recognition where it will really matter...in the very community it serves.
After spending over 30 years in the business of radio and television, from engineering to management to ownership...I believe that a Part 15 operation can close the loose ends and be a vital, though un-official, part to the Part 73 without a doubt. I know...I do it currently with my Part 15 stations as well as work as corporate engineer for a broadcasting company taking care of their 12 stations spread across 3 states.
I just think that if any owner/operator of a Part 15 installation wishes to provide such services like that of the official EAS services..they can and should do so under their own plans based on the official EAS services.
In response to Marshall, who does have valid points about accurate and timely delivery of emergency information, he is over-looking a few things...
...If the message is important why should the messenger be limited to a few when that few (licensed stations) are just as vulnerable to outage and disaster? I have seen the "big boys" get knocked off the air over the most simple and ridiculous things and those simple and ridiculous things that killed the transmitter end up taking a long time to correct, like rats in the cabinet or snakes across the terminals to lightning strikes and power outages to leaky roofs or bullets to the coax. They can be taken out by critters, failures and yes even sabotage and no amount of "official" or "recognition" or license will prevent those things from happening to a primary or secondary. So at that point...where do the people turn to for information?
Well if there is a Part 15'er around....why not take up the slack?!
I hope I have not been too rash on this subject. I merely express with emphasis on what a Part 15'er can do with their setups because I currently do with my Part 15 stations. Although I was able to purchase the proper gear, the gear is not an absolute brick wall in preventing a Part 15'er from being a service to the public...nor is being on a list or being recognized by the FCC. What is most important is serving the public interest. If we just sit around waiting for that magic day that the FCC will suddenly and officially declare Part 15 as a recognized official radio service...we will be waiting for eons and get nowhere...the sun will go nova long before that!
Since Part 15 is NOT any form of official radio service but merely a provision to allow for low power RF emitting devices, it should be up to every single Part 15 owner/operator to take the initiatives to form some sort of procedure and plan to pass along important information if their intent is to serve the public interest. Even if the flea power saves just 1 life, or informs people of severe weather and to take preventive measures...that makes it all worth the effort...and guarantee at that point..you will get plenty of recognition where it will really mean something..in the very community you serve with your Part 15 station.
Perhaps there should be a nation-wide Part 15 EAS type program created and led by the Part 15 community. Create it so as to work with the official EAS system, but on a level no greater than what Part 15 is all about. It does not have to have officiality to it. It does not need some list posted on the FCC website. It just needs individuals who own Part 15 stations to come together and create a plan for Part 15.
Any takers? I think it would be a great thing to have all Part 15 stations participate in. With the amount of experience combined in this forum alone and in others, I believe there is enough knowledge base to develop a Part 15 EAS type program for Part 15 stations.
The future is not set unless we give up.
RFB
This thread continues to be very interesting to me, and at this stage I am prepared to announce the emergency status of my one station.
Because part 15 stations are not required to do or not do anything in particular regarding emergency communication, we are neutral.
Our operator does not monitor licensed radio/tv stations and will be unaware of an EAS broadcast.
The local warning sirens have an associated loudspeaker but it is garbled and totally unintelligible, so its message goes lost.
As time goes on we will read this website and pay close attention to what other part 15 stations plan to do regarding emergencies.
Hard core reality.